Watching lots of competition tapes both USA and BSP and visiting several clubs, I've noticed there is a HUGE gulf in styles: some handlers walk very quickly and are very animated, with the dog prancing and bouncing, like jurgen strasser in the 90 bsp. some dogs are focused to a point, and the handler moves very slowly, camly and deliberately, like ivan in the 2001 nationals. still others look like they are under a lot of pressure, moving neither slow or fast, and not looking happy and bouncy nor deliberately calm and precise, i'm thinking of helmut raiser and franz gugnon.
my question is: is it very very difficult to trial a dog who is very happy, bouncy and prancing, like strasser's aly? is it simply safer, to insure maximum points, that you go through the routine very very slowly like ivan, and have a calm, moderately focused dog?
also, in the retrive and the recall, do you want the dog to be like ivan's, where he has the dog sit in front of him what appears to be about a foot, and not really looking up at him, or do you want the dog practically slamming into your belly, looking right up at you with the chin ALMOST touching your belly?

Originally posted by SCOTT007:
my question is: is it very very difficult to trial a dog who is very happy, bouncy and prancing, like strasser's aly? is it simply safer, to insure maximum points, that you go through the routine very very slowly like ivan, and have a calm, moderately focused dog?
I think that mostly has to do with how you teach and how a dog contains it's energy and if it has the temperament to contain it's energy. Training through mostly inhibition/aversion will give you the not so energetic, dull look. We're assuming the dog has good drive to begin with.

any input?

I think it will all come down to the judge. Some judges like more precision and some judges will let the pen slide a bit if the dog is really happy.

I want the happy dog, so what if he bounces... as long as he doesn't decide to go bouncing off the field without me it is all good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I never much cared for the look of fear. Even though I only did AKC stuff with my schnauzer we worked on the happy. Even in her old age if I show off with her I am often asked if I did AKC stuff... I asked why they asked, and the reply was "she looks too happy for AKC"

Probably cuz my trainer was more of a schutzhund guy than AKC...

let's assume the dog has very good drive and can be trained to be very bouncy and prancing...is that harder to control in a trial and therefore riskier?

Deanna is right when she said"she looks to happy to be in AKC". I showed in AKC for a number of years and there were to many bored looking dogs. My terriers "taught" me that fun is lots better for better relationships with your dog AND better scores.

I don't think you train a dog to be bouncy. It's a matter of not inhibiting it. I personelly think its easier to train a bouncy dog than one who needs to be "brought up" in attitude.

well, I don't think there is an easy answer to what you are getting at.... It will depend on the dog, the trainer, and the training...

I think what you are getting at is more of a proofing issue than anything. Just cuz a dog is bouncy doesn't mean it is barely under control.

Both the fear dog and the bouncy dog know they are off leash....

It comes down to that individual trainer and their style. My TD is big on the slow-as-molasses-heeling stuff, but I am not. Her dog is still happy, but not at all bouncy...
He is a very nervey dog and needs the calm. (actually I am not sure who is making who nervey, but that is another issue entirely)

Many judges look for different styles of obdience in a dog. Some judges like a dog that is bouncy and happy, others do not like to see a dog bouncing and a bit free. I find that in DVG the bouncy free dogs will get better points and remarks then the correct, but not so happy dog. I think this has to do with the Malinois being shown in DVG alot.

In the BSP it will depend on who is judging and what that judge likes. While we are normally not talking a 20 point difference, there will be some points either given or taken for the bouncy dog in a trial.

I find though that alot of judges like to see the happier type dogs work. However I have seen dogs that were correct, but not super fast score 96 in the BSP. If your dog is correct and fast, and does all the whole routine, and gets a 96 or a 98, under a different judge you might get a 90 or a 92. Each judge likes his own thing.

I think that the dog that is happy, but not bouncing will be bring a more consitent score when competing under different judges.

Each dog's temperment and his/her trainer/handler will reflect on what picture is presented when performing.

This isn't going to be a popular post, but I think that Mike is correct about the stylistic differences in judging. Especially with the DVG. I think the DVG attempts to keep to the purest idea of what Schutzhund is. The spirit of the dog in obedience is very, very important.

A perfect example is a dog that was talked about here on the board a few weeks ago. Vyck vom haus Antverpa, that is one of the best heeling dogs I have ever seen. The dog heels "like a royal Lipizoner horse" (spelling?). The dog prances and struts like he owns the freaking field and everybody on it should kiss his little ass. That dog took high in trial, obedience, at the DVG nationals. That same dog got dinged in the USA. . .

I love to see the spirit of the dog in all the exercises. I don't like to see dullness or submission, it hurts to look at it. One reason I hate the AKC obedience trials. (I have not been in a quite a while, it may be getting better)

I also think the stylistic differences of the DVG helper work is also better. More difference in Germany than here, but I like it better.

I am biased though, I am a DVG fan. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

VanCamp - Do you remember what this dog, Vyck, got pointed for in the USA trial? Was it for bumping, interferring with the handler or forging? Did the exuberance of the dog cause it to make mistakes? This is what Scott and I have been debating - when the dog is really "high", sometimes that excitement and energy is not well contained, causing obvious errors. It's a real art to balance correctness and that "joy of working". A lot of it depends on the dog's ability to contain that energy inside himself without letting it bleed out in inappropriate places.