Tonight the dog was chewing on a plastic bottle (supervised, he likes them). 1.5 year old GSD. Wife was on the couch above him. Once he had chewed it to the point that the edges were becoming sharp and dangerous, she reached down to take it away. He snapped at her hand. No growling or baring teeth, but a snap that did break the skin on her thumb just a tiny bit.

He was immediately disciplined. She yelled and slapped him on the head. I walked over immediately, grabbed him tightly by the scruff, and dragged him to his crate. Put him in there, covered it with a jacket (solitary confinement), and turned off the lights.
Also told the wife that if he ever does that again (God forbid), she needs to truly HURT the dog. Explained that even though he's our pet and we love him, he is still an animal, and the only way for him to learn that he cannot snap at us is if he believes he will be genuinely harmed, or worse, if he tries. Had I been next to them at the exact moment he did it, probably would have picked him up and thrown him into a wall-- or similar. Wife health/safety comes before dog health.


My question is this:
With the understanding that dogs have short attention spans and the punishment needs to be immediate, should we continue being distant to him for a day or two? We did get the big correction in immediately (she slapped him and I was there within seconds to take him away). He's been confined to the crate since that time, and when I took him out to do his business tonight, it was short, taut leash, no talking, no games, just outside to go and then back into the crate.
Will he still understand that he is being punished for snapping, even though it's hours later, since he's basically been in a "state of punishment" since the incident?


Input appreciated, as always.




*edit*
I should probably make this clear: I absolutely do NOT believe in physical discipline of the dog, other than prong collar or e-collar corrections. I train using positive reinforcement. However, the ONE behavior to which I respond with physical violence to the dog is snapping/biting at us. I want to make that clear so that a bunch of people don't read-- and misinterpret-- my explanation above and cry animal cruelty.


*edit2*
Also, it's worth noting that I do basically all of the training of the dog. Wife has never been too interested in it. Won't even put the prong collar on him because "it hurts her hands to put it on."
I am going to *strongly* suggest that she start using it and doing some OB, even if it's just once a week or something.

Next time you have to take something away from him, trade him. Especially your wife.

I disagree with the way you handled it, but it's not a discussion I'm interested/willing to get into this time of night. Maybe someone else will tackle it.

On the time of punishment, this was discussed in another thread recently- although I don't remember where. Dogs have NO IDEA why you're being distant to them, hours after an incident. The isolation in a crate was more then sufficient, and I probably would not have even done that personally. So, no, IMO there is no reason to behave anything other then normal, besides being cautious next time when you need to take a toy away from him. (and I'd suggest just trading him for a treat) Another idea- does he out/drop things upon request? If you don't want to trade him, you could always ask him to drop it, and then call him away from the object. Put him in a sit-stay somewhere else and dispose of the water bottle with him out of reach. I'd still recommend trading him for a treat though.

While some might agree with the way you handled it, I agree with Kelly. IMO, handling resource guarding with violence just increases the dog's stress level, and may lead to him being even more leery of your wife/you when he has something he values.

I had a similar situation happen 11 years ago with my first dog, he growled at my husband over a bone. I implemented the same program that Kelly mentioned, having my husband trade low-value items for higher-value items so that my dog learned to associate my husband coming near him with really good things.

I have done the same thing with my Mal pup. If she had anything that I wanted to take away, I have always given her something good while taking the object away. After months of doing this, I can now take anything from her with no issue, and she will gladly recall away from anything because she knows she's likely to be rewarded for it.

It takes some time and consistency for this to be successful, but it really does pay off.

If my girl snapped at me when she had a toy that she didn't want to give up, I would tell her no, put her prong collar on, and keep her tethered to me. Then I would put her in the same situation, and see if she did it again. If she did, I would say no, and she would get the "oh my god you just killed me" correction. If she didn't then she would get rewarded with a high value treat, and I would keep doing it, over and over. Then I'd have my wife do it so that he sees that the rules apply to both of you.

Or you can take a different approach, and just not give him objects that he guards. If he starts guarding his food, hand feed him. JMO.

Kelly, I understand where you're coming from, but IMHO the point should not be to just avoid getting bit by compromising with the dog. To me, the point is to teach the dog that this type of behavior is never acceptable.

Primarily because in a couple years, when I have a 2 year old running around, I dont want to have to worry about the dog snapping at the child. Why should I have to teach a kid that the dog needs to be bargained with? The dog should not behave like that to begin with

Chris Waple> In my opinion you and your wife did the right thing. I for one respect people who have the fortitude to correct their dogs in situations that demand corrections.

From what you say, your dog have challenged your wife in a reflex (which is wrong). If he was truly aggressive, he would have snapped at her when she slapped him and would have tried to bite you when you put him in his cage.


But we cannot achieve anything meaningful with just a correction regime. I would have a multi pronged approach to this problem.

1) Start marker training him the "yuck" command. When you say it, he is expected to spit out what ever he is holding. In that situation, you can say "yuck" and not even have to bend down and pick up the bottle. Say "Yuck" wait for the dog to release the bottle and then kick it away.

2) Your wife needs to be more confident and assertive with him and should not carry the burden of her past experience when interacting with him.

3) Your wife needs to control his food. Put his food down and make him lie down and wait 5 minutes and she has to release him to go get his food.

4) Your wife should train the long down with marker and proof it with compulsion (If needed).

5) The things that tell the dog it's place are your ability to control access to it's food, play and your ability to make him immobile (with your words).

6) Pretty soon the dog will surrender emotionally to your wife by instinct. Once that happens then he will/should get babied and spoiled and understand that by acting like a puppy he can get away with murder rather than acting like an assertive adult.

So him snapping at your wife for the bottle is just a symptom of his mindset. The bottle itself is not very valuable to him. So there is no point in desensetizing him to the act of giving his bottle up. Tomorrow he may have a piece of raw meat which you may want him to spit. The dog must understand that it is in his interest to Obey.

One psychological game I play with my dogs is, whenever I eat some thing that I can share with them, like a bun or bread, I will sit amongst them and eat first while they wait and watch. Once I have had my share, I will feed them by hand ONLY if they are calm. The one that acts excited does not get a share.

This in my experience can be achieved with out severe corrections as long as a slow and steady progress path is chosen in making the dog totally submissive.

I also agree with what Tabitha, Kelly and Ram have said.

We had a bit of an issue with our youngest at about that age, a few months younger. He did a lunging, teeth bared growl at my husband as he was simply walking by a deer hide the pup had become possessive of (unbeknownst to us at the time).

I immediately collared him up and we headed out on a long, strenuous mountain walk where he was not let off leash (the other two were). He was on a short line (pretty much heeling the entire time) with sits and downs the entire way.

He was crated for the next two days but this was in no way punishment – he was not ignored in any way. We simply took a step back in our pack structure program and controlled his every move, when we weren’t out actively exercising or training him.

He was a pussy cat that evening and he probably didn’t need the two-day boot camp; but, he’s a big boy and I wasn’t taking any chances where leadership was concerned or any thoughts he may have about climbing the social/rank ladder.

This boy now does therapy work and has never had a hand raised to him in anger or punishment. That was the one and only rank issue we ever had with him. He knows his place well.

Acting immediately does not “always” mean that it needs to be violent. Showing him who’s boss does not need to mean you must “truly HURT” him. To me leadership is being in control of the situation.

Your wife needs to show him she’s in control. If she doesn’t like training so much, at a minimum she should be practicing NILIF. He gets nothing without doing something for it. No pats, no praise, no treats, no toys, no movement without her asking for a command that you’ve trained.

Crate time should never be a banishment/punishment thing. Simply a place for him to relax and a place where you can ensure his movement is controlled. A tool like anything else to be used in conjuction with a good pack structure involving active leadership.

Again, I agree with Kelly. I’d be making it a priority to train a “drop it” or “leave it” command.

Edited by CJ Barrett (11/04/2011 08:11 AM)
Edit reason: Ram posted at the same time, add agree

Hey Chris, I usually look at something like this as just the escalation of whats been going on before that moment. Like you, I generally do all the training so I make sure every interaction with my family is managed so something like this doesnt happen.

I'm definately not against corrections, but I think the problem with the ass whooping is that he's not going to see it as a correction for what he did. It can be hard to make the right association in his head because of all the commotion going on with both of you. Maybe it did, but I think you generally have to set these things up and control whats going on for it to work. I would worry next time his snapping is going to be worse, like he's going to want to get her before she gets him.

You need to build that respect he needs to have for her without it being a fight because if you don't, she has to win the fight and that may not work out.

Thanks everyone. I do 100% feel this is a pack structure issue. Discussed that with wife last night as well. He needs to be "reminded of his place" ie he is the bottom of the totem pole around here. I am going to have her tether him on prong/leash while she's around the house. And NILIF.

FYI, he does know "out" and does it perfectly every time. But, for whatever reason, she didn't ask him to on this occasion. I still feel that ultimately we shouldnt have to ask, or at least shouldnt have to run the risk of a puncture if we don't ask.