my dogs cue on my shoulders when we're heeling. some of them are perceptive to the slightest of changes.
this year i probably will not have an indoor training facility.
i learned last winter that when i wear my winter coat, it hides my shoulders. the dogs get crooked, they forge, they lag, they get confused.
any suggestions either on how to train over the winter or a different type of warm clothes?
there are some trials coming up in jan. and feb., so i don't want to not work them.

With a big jacket on it is hard to cue the dogs with your shoulders, without getting banged for points. Try moving your head; if you are turning right turn your head right a second before your body goes right; the dogs learn this quickly.

I wear one of those dorky coverall deals like mechanics wear. It is very thinly insulated so it's not so bulky, it's very warm,it keeps your clothes clean and it's a lot easier to work dogs in.

It doesn't make much of a fashion statement but HEY........it does the job. Form follows function, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In this same line of thought. How do the dogs compete in really bad weather if they have to cue off of body movement? In AKC (I know not the same thing) I competed in the rain with a poncho many times, and didn't notice a drastic difference. Just curious.

earthdog, that is a good question.
i did not teach my dogs to follow my shoulders. they taught me. i have harnessed it, though.
if they do it naturally, and technically they are correct, why fight nature?
i haven't found very many trainers that seem to understand it.
i think a lot of dogs get desensitized to the shoulders.

Corgipower, realizing that dogs do read body language so well is the reason I asked. I was always worried about loosing points for double handling. I can see how it would work for you in summer clothes, but Doesn't that limit you to showing in good weather? I used to practice ocasionally with my poncho on to avoid confusing the dog. I sure confused a lot of neighbors though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

not necessarily. in bad weather, everyone is at the same disadvantage.
plus, it depends on your personal goals. for me, i use competitions as a way to measure where we are, how we're progressing. i'm not really a point chaser. (although winning is always nice.)
and one of the most aware dogs of mine is an akc dog, and we have the option of competing indoors.
as for double commands, yes, technically it is. but if it's not obvious, if it flows, i don't think the judges take off for it. there's a lot of ways to get away with double commands........
i consider my relationship with the dogs to be a partnership--a team effort. my job is to enable them to perform their best.
i was at an outdoor trial in the cold rain. i took off my jacket for the ring. i was cold, but it allowed my dog a chance.

Corgi-
Not to start a debate or anything... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
...But why dont you just teach them the correct heel position and sitz...no matter what your wearing. That forging, laging, or crooked sitz, etc are not acceptable.
I know what your talking about I believe...I saw it at a club south of me....a guy used his shoulders to correct a crooked sitz and also a little if the dog was forging etc...
Just curious...
Pat

they know heel position. quite accurately. if i step out of position by a quarter inch, they will correct themselves.
if i tilt my shoulders forward (like on a fast pace), they forge. because i am pushing them forward. if i keep my shoulders back in fast pace, they stay in position.
one of the dogs (she was the second dog i traind for obedience) always stayed in a really nice and accurate heel position. lots of attention. well, i had been taught to always watch my dog. i thought that meant to stare at the dog while heeling. we would do an about turn, and she would end up about a foot out to the left--because as i was watching her, i was turning right (akc) and looking left to watch her. by turning my shoulders left, i was telling her to move away from me. when i realized that, i started making the about turns and making sure to turn my shoulders to the right (direction of travel). i didn't exaggerate it, just made it correct. all of a sudden she was nice and tight at my side around the turn.
and the corgi first taught it to me in agility. the little speed demon jumping fool could be at the jump--next step would put him in the air. if i turned my shoulders even a fraction of an inch, i would pull him off the jump.
so, assuming that makes sense.....it is not that they don't know. it is that the winter coat is poofy. they cannot tell if my shoulders are forward, back, turned left, turned right. i was struggling with them last winter and wondering why they were so out of position. when i looked at my jacket, i realized it was deceptive.

That makes a lot of sense Corgipower. Those reasons are pretty much the reason why I always proofed with the poncho, hooded sweatshirst, etc. I didn't want to wait for the ring to give my dogs another look. I also agree that going for points isn't the end all, but a high score is always a verification of a job well done. I had been taught to never look at my dog for the reasons you comment on. It was to easy to cause lagging. I always looked straight ahead and trusted the dog to be in place. It worked well for me. My best dog Rocky, a Kerry Blue Terrier, always looked at the ground in front of my feet. At the time I was showing(1980s) the only dogs that made the strong eye contact seen in todays working dog trials were the Golden Retrevers. I've learned to like that look and will use it with my next dog.