Hi there!

I'm new to the forums, but am hoping that someone can give me a little advice.

I have had Stryker (~9 y.o. nuetered male GSD, appears to be european working lines) for two years. Adopted him from a local rescue. I don't know his history prior to me, but I have never had a real problem with him fighting other dogs. he and I have bonded strongly, although I know that I need to do a better job with training him - he is very dominant and pushy.

We have had several dogs over the last couple of years, and have just started fostering. Over two years, I have had to break up a couple of small scuffles, but nothing that made me think I needed to keep Stryker separate from the others. Recently (within the last two months), we've been fostering dogs for the local rescue. around the same time we lost a dog who was Stryker's "pal", to a severe heart condition. Long story short - there have been a lot of major changes to the pack structure. And a LOT more fights. I have had to take one of the other dogs to the vet for facial lacerations, which Stryker inflicted. And had to take Stryker to the vet for severe puctures to his leg several days ago when he got into it with the foster dog.

I recognize that Stryker is the problem in all of this, and have been working through the Leerburg "Groundwork" program with him. I will be restarting from Step 1 after the fight the other day (which happened when I was leading him out of the room by the collar when I saw that things were escalating. I wasn't fast enough obviously). Apparently he didn't get the point. My question is, I'm concerned that he's WAY more dog than I thought I was getting (he's always been pretty happy-go-lucky, loves other dogs, has never ever acted aggressively to a person (just pushy, which he's not allowed to do anymore). Is there going to be a point, reasonably speaking, when I can expect to trust him again? We will not be fostering anymore, and I am going to severely restrict or completely put a stop to other dogs "visiting" the house with my friends, to stabilize the pack dynamic. He is currently separated from the other dogs if I am not directly supervising, and they are NEVER allowed in the yard together, loose. I would love to get to the point where I can trust him to be in another room, or out in the yard, with the other dogs without being anxious every second that he's going to start something.

He is a high-prey-drive, very excitable dog. I have a hard time sometimes getting him calm once he gets amped up (and it doesn't take much to get him amped up). He jumps, spins, moans, pants, cries, etc. when he thinks it's time to play fetch, time for dinner, whatever. I've always made him work for food (down/stay/eye contact/ok), and he always works for the ball when we play fetch (drop it/down/stay/yes). it's the process leading up to those things that is out of control. Getting him out the back door to play fetch in the yard, he has literally gotten so out of control he's fallen and hurt himself. I know that this high excitement is a factor in the fighting as well, since he's so easily stimulated, and protective. I know that one fight we had was started due to overstimulation from some out-of-control kids we had over (he will never be off leash around kids again), and another two were started when he thought one of the other dogs was moving in on his/my territory.

I would love to not keep him locked up for the rest of his life, but I recognize that that might just be the reality. I'm hoping there's a way to calm him, teach him to respect me (because I think this out-of-control thing, and the protective thing, are both signals that he doesn't quite think I'm up to the job), and teach him that it's completely unacceptable to be picking fights. Because they are BIG SCARY FIGHTS, and I'm tired of dealing with them, and the vet visits after.

"I would love to not keep him locked up for the rest of his life, but I recognize that that might just be the reality. "


This is alarming me, although it's probably just my reading it wrong. Separating is more a (careful) matter of who is out and who is crated, than keeping one dog "locked up."

I don't mean to jump right on this, because you have a lot to address, but this dog is in as much need as any dog (and probably much more) of plenty of structured exercise (and of course training), every day.

You'll get help, and there are many threads that have covered this topic in great detail for added reading.

I just didn't want isolation or inactivity to exacerbate the problem you describe.

This "they are BIG SCARY FIGHTS, and I'm tired of dealing with them, and the vet visits after" .... means that they are NOT separated. The separation has to happen now.

Welcome, by the way!

Thanks for your reply, and I'll clarify what you were asking about. "locked up" is not the correct term, but "separation" is. I had put Stryker through the groundwork program for several weeks, and was attempting a transition to short periods of structured time out with the other dogs. This is where I'm having trouble. I obviously moved too quickly with this. My hope is that I can get him to a point where he does not require complete separation from the other dogs for the rest o his life. He does get walks (with the other dogs. Have never had a problem there other than his excitement level before leaving the house), and structured play time with me (fetch), and structured affection (but only if he's in a calm state) as well as individual and group obedience exercises (I am working to marker train all the dogs).

So I guess to rephrase - And I realize I may need to just suck it up and deal with it - keeping the strict separation is a moderate pain in the butt (but I'm starting to get used to it), and I also miss my dog. I'd like to be able to just hang out with all three of them, without worrying about another death match. Is this achievable? Or do I need to just accept that separation is the best thing for all of my dogs...

How many dogs do you have that live permanently in your house, besides Stryker?

And although it may sound funny, does Stryker know how to relax? And how much exercise/training/stimulation does he get on a daily basis?

I have three working line GSDs that coexist peacefully (most of the time!) and a small dog, as well. They also have dog "friends" that they get along with. I would love to offer advice, but I need a clearer picture of what a day in the life of your dog is like

I need the picture Melissa asks for, too.

I'm going to say that seperation will have to be a way of life with this dog for the forseable future maybe longer.

Is it possible for him to be an ONLY dog in your home?

Some dogs just will never get along no matter what you do.

Also sounds like this dog needs LOTS MORE exercise then he is getting. I'd have him chasing balls until his tongue was dragging 3 feet behind him. A tired dog is a good dog or at least alot easier to manage.

I would also keep him on a line always...even when fetching. (My dogs as young dog drag a line all the time) He needs to have the presence of mind that you CAN control him at ALL times. Having a line on him in & out of the house will give him that mental picture. There is never any shame in backing up on training in order to get things back under control.

NILIF is the ONLY way to live with this dog. If he can't be on a line with you...into the crate he goes. He needs to earn EVERYTHING.

The constant changing of pack structure(dogs coming & going) can be very unsettling to some dogs. Expecially to dogs that are a bit insecure. His pushiness could be fear-based.. & not out of any kind of dominance. Extremely FEW dogs are truely dominant...many are beta dogs..just pushing to try to move up in the pack, to get attention, to feel more secure etc etc, but are not at all dominate. If this guy was on top, so to speak, & now other dogs are coming in 'challenging' his position in the dog pack...it can cause him to be very defensive. Living like that is not comfortable for any dog & can make them very reactive & unsettled.

Work on OB with him several times a day. Incorporate it into your games of fetch. (Make him sit..toss ball release him to fetch ball. Make him down, sit, back up, down toss ball & let him fetch it etc etc) If he were mine...he would not be allow to make ANY decisions on his own. I would control every breath he took until I was sure that he 'got it'. It could take a month it could take months. He may NEVER be able to be alone with another dog. Only time & will tell.

I have very high drvie working line GSDs & I have lived with 3 of them that did not get along...so I know what it is like to live that way. I know that it is not easy. It took 2 years for the two dogs that I have here to get along & be trustworthy together. Even at that I need to be vigilent. No toys in the house or bones etc. My female is very reactive & will be quick to stir things up if my male acts like a jerk. So it requires a watchful eye. Some days are easier then others. But exercise in key. I have a treadmill that gets used on days that I can't run my dogs due to weather or ground conditions. They are great for exercise back up.

I would not allow friends to bring their dogs over to the house. I would also put this dog up when company is around. Why let him have the opportunity to be pushy etc.

Just some thoughts. Good luck

I would like to frame a bunch of Anne's post.


Wish I had about 30 minutes to expand on some of it. LOL


I see it as doable, with consistency and the steps outlined, and I've been there more than once.



PS

"I would not allow friends to bring their dogs over to the house. I would also put this dog up when company is around."

Couldn't agree more. This part is really not even a big deal.

Sure thing . Here's the picture.

My three permanent dogs are stryker, Chunk (6yo neutered male lab/pit? mix, rescued after his owner was killed in Iraq), and Farrah (10month old spayed female Pekingese, Missouri puppy mill dump rescue). Polly is the foster - 7Yo spayed female lab/husky/shep? mix. Really excitable, untrained, history of neglect/abuse).

Typically in the morning, if the weather is reasonable, all of us go for a walk right after getting up. About a half hour, brisk walk. The three "bigs" are to my right and Farrah follows behind or on my left. I use a dominant dog collar on Stryker, as well as a martingale, a martingale on chunk, and a flat collar on Polly, amd a harness on Farrah. It is a very structured walk, and they have to sit and wait before coming out the door or comin back in. They are not allowed to lead during the walk, and I correct them if they try. I haven't walked them since the last fight a couple days ago, since stryker's leg needs to heal first. I will not be walking stryker and Polly at the same time again - they are kept totally separate now, but Polly will growl at Stryker from her crate if she sees him.

After the walk, they are all put in down/stay in the living room (except Farrah who sits, since I haven't yet figured out how to train her to lie down), while I put together their food. Polly is now fed in a separate room, and Stryker will be as well as we work through groundwork again. I require eye contact before they get their food. Then separate yard time (Stryker alone or with Farrah only, since they get along well), crate for Polly, back room for Stryker, crate for Farrah, and Chunk free roaming (he is the most trustworthy and laid back of the three). I come home for lunch to let everyone out, same separation routine, and then Stryker gets structured fetch for 10 or 15 mins (until he gets tired), then into his room with a peanut butter kong or bone, same crating for the others, and then I go back to work. They get fed as soon as I get home in the evening, sometimes we do some group training stuff (just basic things, since they all need work on that), and then just relaxing. When Stryker is out with Chunk and Farrah, I will send him to his bed and put him in stay - to reinforce that I'm in charge of whathje gets to do and when, while at the same time (my hope) getting him acclimated to being around the other dogs in a structured, controlled way. He normally deals with this well, although he does break te "stay"from time to time (which earns a correction every time).

Does he know how to relax? LOL, not something I've ever thought about. To be honest, Stryker is pretty much always on a knife's edge. He is so hyper sensitive to tone of voice, any stimulus whatsoever. He relaxes eventually on his bed in the evenings, usually, once he realizes that's where I'm making him stay for the forseeable future. Otherwise, anything from the sound of the doorknob on the back door to a bird out the window can totally put him over the edge i I don't see it coming and put him into a command preemptively.

Exercise time with him is about as much as he can physically do right now. He is on daily Rimadyl for arthritis in his hips already. I can't increase his exercise without causing him pain. So I feel like mental exercises are good (he's very good at "find it" in the house with toys), but again, tends to get WAY overexcited quickly.

The other two have not had as much time training with me as Stryker, and they are challenging in different ways (Chunk has the attention span of a gnat, and Farrah is relentlessly stubborn). I don't know if Stryker sees me struggling to teach the other two the basics and loses respect?

I absolutely admit that I may have bitten off a little more than I can chew, although I didn't realize it until recently when I started seein Stryker's response to all the pack changes. I am 110% committed to doing the right things for my dogs, and am open to admitting mistakes I've made and fixing them.

Anne - thank you!! It's reassuring to me to know that separation is an ok way to keep a dog. And browsing the forums, I see that it's more common that I'd realized. Still not my ideal, but definitely something i feel a lot more comfortable with, just knowing I'd be in good company.

Is there anyone else who could take Polly to foster? If not, I would most definitely keep her and Stryker separated.

Does Stryker fight with Chunk or Farrah?

Years ago, I asked a question on this forum after my Grace and Kira got into it over a bone. It was their first scuffle and it scared the crap out of me. People here told me different things, including the fact that they might always need to be separated. I realized that things needed to change and change fast. Boot camp for both dogs and here we are, almost 5 years later, with two female dogs that get along marvelously. We literally have had only one other "fight"...more of a 30 second show that was quickly ended by me. No injuries.

Then, I moved out...the GSDs stayed with my parents and I took our Cairn Terrier (I totally got the short end of the stick let me tell you). My life was empty without a GSD and a little over a year ago, I added Vigo to the pack.

Vigo does not live full time with Grace and Kira, a fact that presents its own challenges. Keeping this pack peaceful takes a lot of effort on my part, including bring the girls to my house often or Vigo to my mom's house often. It is rare that they go more than a day or two without seeing each other.

Generally speaking, they get along very well. Vigo is now a year a half and is testing the waters with Kira a bit, which has required a lot more vigilance on my part. They have had one fight...no one injured...completely 100% my fault. Do not let two strong minded dogs out for a run when energy is high, high, high. Neither was in the right state of mind and I ignored it. They're herding dogs; Kira treated Vigo like a sheep, nipped him and he was pissed. Good to know though that screaming my bloody head off at them will leave both of them staring at me like what the heck!?!

Their interaction since has been carefully monitored and Vigo is learning that even if he is mad, that behavior is absolutely not tolerated. We have not had any further problems...we have greatly increased both dogs' exercise, obedience training - both individually and in groups.

What works for us:
1. We walk as a pack. I am not a huge Cesar Millan fan, but I totally believe in his philosophy regarding the importance of controlled, pack walking.
2. My dogs practice obedience as a group. All three GSDs practice things like sits, downs, stays, recalls, etc. together several times a week.
3. My dogs know what is expected of them...well, Vigo is learning. Teenage, unaltered dogs can be a real pain in the arse. I rule with an fair, but firm attitude.
4. My dogs do not interact with strange dogs in uncontrolled situations. We do have several dogs in the family and we travel as a group often. This means seven dogs in one place. We all maintain leadership and the dogs all know it. I will scold my aunt's dog, and she will scold mine. We have a similar mindset when it comes to dogs and it is important for us to all be together and to have our dogs along, so we make it work.

In addition to the groundwork you are doing, please look into Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol (http://dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html) and also, you might want to invest in the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. Both will go a long way towards teaching Stryker to relax, which is most likely the source of the problem IMO.

This thread might be of some help: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31254&page=1#348442