Hi Everyone, I am new to the concept of the marker training and was looking for a little help. Here is a bit of background. I have a 4yo rescue Mal that I have had for 2 1/2 years. I work with a trainer and we are on and OB demo team for our club. We are also in an advanced off leash proofing class.

The next step for us was trialing and I entered my first trials in both Novice OB and Rally Novice. In our first trial we did very well in rally 99/100 but mediocre in OB 180.5/200. In our next trial 2 weeks later our OB was 178.5 and our Rally 77 (in part due to handler errors on 2 stations )


I scheduled my trials close together for 2 reasons, 1. I really just wanted to get the first on done so I could see what our weaknesses were and 2, I wanted to see if what I could improve on that didn't go well in the first trials.

What I found was my dog got very introverted and lost focus on me. Once that happened he lagged in his heeling, sniffed mats, and lost his "energy". I was able to entice him in a warm up with some turkey and for about 3 minutes I had a wonderfully attentive animated dog, unfortunately I couldn't carry that energy into the ring.

I was surprised at his lack of focus because when we have done the demos, he wasn't distracted and he was eager to work.

When I came home I started looking for techniques that could help me and I came across the Focused Heeling DVD which I bought. I also watched the videos on Michael Ellis's philosophy and some of the free videos on marker training. I understand the concept, but I'm not sure how to apply it to a dog that has some training under his belt (collar).

I was thinking of using German commands (we use English now) so that he doesn't associate the new way with the old, but I'm not sure if that is right. I also am getting good responses with the marker word (yes) but I don't know how to structure a session. Do I work short intervals on heeling or sit/stand/down or do you do longer sessions and practice different commands.

Any advice would be helpful, thank you.

I would start over. I would assume that all my training from here on would be marker training. Starting over is much faster, of course, than starting new commands.

I don't know that different words or a different language will be necessary. I change the word if the old one is tainted (like a badly trained recall), but not otherwise. Maybe others will feel differently.

Can you buy a video? If so, I will recommend that you get either #219 (Power of Training Dogs w/Markers) or #220 (Power of Training Dogs w/Food), which are meant to be in that order, depending on how secure you feel with the concept.

"I also am getting good responses with the marker word." Do you mean that when you give the word, the dog looks for the reward?

OP said
"What I found was my dog got very introverted and lost focus on me. Once that happened he lagged in his heeling, sniffed mats, and lost his "energy". I was able to entice him in a warm up with some turkey and for about 3 minutes I had a wonderfully attentive animated dog, unfortunately I couldn't carry that energy into the ring.



Off hand I would suspect the dog became ring wise quickly. This can happen fast if the reward hasn't been weaned off of. Never completely of course but enough to get through a routine on drive alone.
Stick with the marker training and try and become more random with the reward. In heeling for instance. Reward on the 1st step, the 3rd, 10th, the 5th step. "random"!
If you didn't build to this point from the get go then one or two trips to the ring taught the dog that the reward wasn't coming.
ALSO "many" beginners in marker training have a hard time understanding reward and lure from bribe. Inside that ring the "bribe" was no longer there and the dog caught on to that quickly. I see that in your comment about "enticing him in a warmup with turkey".
I'm guilty myself of "I really just wanted to get the first on done so I could see what our weaknesses were".
The inexperienced trainer will just reinforce what mistakes the dog can make when doing this because you can't reward/correct in the ring. Your instructor and a video of your training is the best way to determine what needs work.
Also
go through the pattern without the dog. That will build YOUR confidence and you wont be spending so much time on wondering if your making mistakes and worrying about the dog's performance also. I like to break things down to as many small behaviors as possible for the dog AND myself. When they are all solid they go together like a very easy puzzle.

I asked a similar question a while back:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=30884&page=1#344234

And got some good answers, including a slightly different one from Bob. The consensus being that I need to practice more in mock trial situations to counteract the "ring wise"-ness.
I also asked the question, and got a response, to Michael Ellis! He thought it was more of a motivation issue.

http://leerburg.com/newsletter/10-06-11.htm
I'm currently working on all fronts with an eye towards more trialing in the Spring and Summer of next year. I am also retraining the heel following the exact steps in the focused heeling Dvd. I thought about using a new word for heel, but ultimately stuck with the old. It's going well, but so was all her previous training, The only way to test it will be in fake dog shows and practice matches to see if she "blows me off" while in the ring.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Ci

Thank you everyone for the responses. Just to clarify about the marker training, I started it after my last trial and have not trialed him since. I was using the turkey to try and motivate him and bring up his energy and focus, but not as the reward for a marker.

I started by saying yes and then feeding him a few minutes 4 or 5 time a day for a few days. If Saber is lying down and I say "yes" he looks up expectantly, sometimes coming to me sometimes I have to take a few steps backwards to lure him to me. I have started him on touching my hand, standing on a box, and doing sit, down, and stands, with plenty of yeses and rewards. I have just started putting him next to a wall and having his he up for muscle memory. I'm trying to keep things short & faced paced to try and keep his interest up.

I will take a look at the links as I believe motivation is our biggest weakness.

Hi Dawn,

I've just re-read this thread and I am a bit confused by your last post and specifically the sentence:

 Quote:

I started by saying yes and then feeding him a few minutes 4 or 5 time a day for a few days. If Saber is lying down and I say "yes" he looks up expectantly, sometimes coming to me sometimes I have to take a few steps backwards to lure him to me.
I am not sure if I have misunderstood what you are saying..but I think you might be confusing both yourself and your dog with the way you are using "yes" . There should be absolutely no confusion over the sequence.....You ask for a behaviour....the dog offers it...You immediately Mark that behaviour with a YES...and then reward. If the dog does not give you the required behaviour then you don't say "Yes" and there is no reward offered.
So if Saber is lying down and you say "YES" that should mean good boy Saber you are doing what I asked you to do. But here is where I am confused because you say Saber looks up expectantly when you say Yes, sometimes coming to you but sometimes you have to lure him to you. I read this as Saber has linked the word Yes with a reward and is now looking for his reward when you say "Yes". BUT it sounds as though you actually wanted Saber to come to you. If that was the case you needed to wait until Saber had come to you before you marked that with a YES. Lurng may be the way you get Saber to start coming to you...or you may wait until Saber offers this behaviour and immediately mark it and reward.

If I totally misunderstood what you were trying to say and I have repeated everything over please forgive me!

Lisabet, I think you are right I am confusing myself (as well as my dog)

When I first started reading and watching the material on the marker training, understood it to mean that I needed to have Saber associate the word "Yes" with getting the reward, and to start by saying "yes" then feeding, repeating til he heard the the word and then expected a treat. Connie Sutherlan had asked if he looks for the reward when I say "yes" and what I was trying to explain was that if Saber is hanging out (not working) and I say "yes" he looks at me, but what he doesn't do is hear the word and come running expecting food. He seems to understand that "yes" means food, but not that it means release and he can move, so I was trying to lure him to try and make him realize it was ok for him to move.

I hope that is a little clearer.

 Quote: Dawn Sawyer

Lisabet, I think you are right I am confusing myself (as well as my dog)

When I first started reading and watching the material on the marker training, understood it to mean that I needed to have Saber associate the word "Yes" with getting the reward, and to start by saying "yes" then feeding, repeating til he heard the the word and then expected a treat. Connie Sutherlan had asked if he looks for the reward when I say "yes" and what I was trying to explain was that if Saber is hanging out (not working) and I say "yes" he looks at me, but what he doesn't do is hear the word and come running expecting food. He seems to understand that "yes" means food, but not that it means release and he can move, so I was trying to lure him to try and make him realize it was ok for him to move.

I hope that is a little clearer.

" .... what I was trying to explain was that if Saber is hanging out (not working) and I say "yes" he looks at me, but what he doesn't do is hear the word and come running expecting food. He seems to understand that "yes" means food, but not that it means release and he can move, so I was trying to lure him to try and make him realize it was ok for him to move."

I'm so muddled now .....

For right now, no asking for a behavior, etc. .... I was asking whether the marker was loaded:

QUOTE from above:
"I also am getting good responses with the marker word." Do you mean that when you give the word, the dog looks for the reward? END

Why would he have to "come running" if you are loading the marker? Please describe how you loaded or are loading the verbal marker. If you have not loaded the marker properly, then it doesn't mean "release" or anything else yet.

Connie said
"Why would he have to "come running" if you are loading the marker? Please describe how you loaded or are loading the verbal marker. If you have not loaded the marker properly, then it doesn't mean "release" or anything else yet".

Dito! The "loading" should be with the dog next to/in front of you where it doesn't have to do anything but look at you to hear the "yes" and earn the reward. Even something as simple as walking across the room is adding to much to the initial loading process.
Baby steps in the beginning and you'll be surprised how quickly the dog learns how to run once the concept is understood.

Side note aka marker training
I just finished watching the new Michael Ellis - ADVANCED CONCEPTS IN MOTIVATION DVD.(turning the reward into an event)
I have many training DVDs by Balabanov, Flinks, Ellis and others. I put Ellis at the top and this new one far surpasses even anything he's done previously. It's not just another motivational tape. It carries the motivational training to another level of understanding. Classic Ellis explanations of how, when and why!
If your into and understand marker/motivational training this is a "must have"!

It takes a while to tease through the tangle ...and we have the benefit of understanding both written and verbal communication through many complex interactions with lots of different people. We learn to negotiate "meaning"...as indeed this thread has shown quite wonderfully!

Our dogs on the other hand are solely dependent on how we teach them what a word means!