I am going to the grocery store this afternoon, I might be able to pick up whatever is needed.

Anyway, this is the food I have been giving them:

frozen blogs of ground up chicken carcasses from the butcher (thawed)
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/dawgworld2010/Screenshot2011-12-07at124405PM.png


chicken backs and necks chopped into bitesize pieces
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/dawgworld2010/Screenshot2011-12-07at124355PM.png

and the odd marrow bones

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/dawgworld2010/Screenshot2011-12-07at124412PM.png

My husband usually feeds them and he is much better and grinding up fruit, vegetables, and eggshells to add to the ground up chicken carcasses.

I tend to just feed them the meat and bones.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/07/2011 05:04 PM)
Edit reason: again .... unembedding big photos

When I get "chicken carcasses" at my local meat shop, they are basically necks and backs, sometimes with ribs and breastbone. So if your ground carcasses are the same, your dogs are just living on backs and necks and nothing else, just in two different forms.

I wouldn't think you would need to add eggshell with all that bone...

Why not switch out your ground chicken with some other boneless meat like beef or pork? I use beef heart, cause its cheap.

You are adding eggshells to all that bone? Yikes! Cindy is right that this is unneeded and probably increasing the calcium to too-high levels..


I also agree with Cindy that this is a no-protein-variety diet.


Also, I don't see any organ meat. (Organ meat should be added very slowly and gradually with dogs who have had diarrhea, BTW. Actually, with most dogs.)

I'm glad there is a little produce ("My husband usually feeds them and he is much better and grinding up fruit, vegetables, and eggshells to add to the ground up chicken carcasses").

But I agree that all the poop evidence as well as this thread is showing too much bone in the diet. This is easily tweaked by increasing or adding MM, and at the same time the protein variety can be added (even with cooked egg .... but in view of the poops, no shells).



eta
Slightly high calcium is excreted by healthy dogs .... that's not the issue. The issue is what you are seeing in the poops. Calcium is a poop-firmer/hardener, and as such, a useful gauge of the calcium-phosphorus ratio in the diet.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/07/2011 05:18 PM)
Edit reason: eta

What's the question? Should you add muscle meat to this diet? Yes, absolutely. Ditch the eggshells. That's just more calcium that you don't need with all this bone.

What's the question? Should you add muscle meat to this diet?


Yes. It came from here: http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=31451&page=2#350977




Yes, absolutely. Ditch the eggshells. That's just more calcium that you don't need with all this bone.

Ditto!

I forgot to mention I make my own training treats with beef kidney and liver, and chicken hearts and livers. I cook them and slice them into small pieces, drying them out a bit in the oven to make them easier to handle. Is that what muscle meat is?

Also, I picked up some ground chicken meat, no bone. I could add some of that to their usual?

At present they are still on their overcooked rice gruel diet, so they are not having any meat or bone at all. I would like to get them started off right, as long as we are re-introducing their proper diet.

I've never seen them have any problem with the kidney and liver treats that I make. I have also given them pork liver on occasion, once again, cooked and cut into small pieces for treats.

"I forgot to mention I make my own training treats with beef kidney and liver, and chicken hearts and livers. I cook them and slice them into small pieces, drying them out a bit in the oven to make them easier to handle. Is that what muscle meat is?"

This is organ meat. Good.


(Muscle meat just means boneless meat in raw food discussions.)

 Quote: Jenny Arntzen

I forgot to mention I make my own training treats with beef kidney and liver, and chicken hearts and livers. I cook them and slice them into small pieces, drying them out a bit in the oven to make them easier to handle. Is that what muscle meat is?

Also, I picked up some ground chicken meat, no bone. I could add some of that to their usual?.

Muscle Meat is just meat - your training treats are organs, which is good.

Why feed ground? (more expensive, more surface area for pathogens, no beneficial "chewing/tearing" for the dog) and also it's just more chicken.

I don't know what people with big dogs do, but I just look for whatever is on sale - pork roasts, beef heart (heart is a muscle meat), cheap cuts of beef, some venison a friend was giving away etc. and cut these up into meal size chunks and freeze.

As others have mentioned, what this diet needs is meat and variety.

Variety means different kinds of animal proteins. If half your diet is chicken, you should try to include other animals--turkey, beef, pork, fish, goat, venison, etc.

Different sources provide a wider range of nutrients--what chicken lacks, you make up for with beef.

The "muscle meat" that's missing is any kind of meat with no bones. It could be anything, but since you've got the raw meaty bones covered in the chicken parts, choose something other than chicken.

Counter-intuitively, heart meat and gizzards can both be counted as "muscle meat" for raw feeding. Those are both cheap. Beef and pork heart are among my main standbys for meat. Ground turkey is one that many people use, also cheap.

Organs are liver and kidney, primarily.

As you're shopping and planning meals, note the weight of the things you're buying. About half the diet should come from raw meaty bones-- that's the chicken parts and frames you're buying now. A bit less than half should be muscle meat. And about 10% should be organs.

So, if you buy 10 pounds of chicken backs, you need about 8 pounds of muscle meat, and about 2 pounds of liver.

That would come closer to an appropriate ratio of bone, meat, and organs.

This isn't an exact science, and you'll get a better feel for what's the right amounts by keeping track of what you feed and then noting the consistency of the poop. Too hard and crumbly means add more meat and less bone.

This page has some great info on raw feeding:

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjhomemade2.html

Just for an example, here is what I feed:

RMB: ground bone-in chicken, ground bone-in turkey, chicken necks, duck necks, some canned jack mackerel on occasion

MM: beef heart, some ground beef, lamb hearts, boneless turkey chunks, chicken gizzards, tripe

OM: beef liver, chicken liver, beef kidney or spleen (these two are harder for me to get)

I feed approximately 40-50% RMB, 40-50% MM, and 5-10% OM...balance over time...so the amounts vary.

I have finally gotten it down to two distributors to get all of my supplies. I buy in bulk. One comes and drops off at my house, along with a large co-op order that individuals come to pick up their portion. The other is a semi-local poultry farmer that sells at a local farmer's market. Works out wonderfully for us.