I am interested in hearing about hard or (handler agreesive)dogs, "Mink, Crock,,,," lines that people have trained used Ivan Balabanov's training methods.
Success or failures. Did it work with these bloodlines?
Looking forward to your training stories..
Cathi Windus

While I have not trained with him, I know of a few that have. What I have seen is that his methods are good for high drive dogs, that are clear, and when they are started as pups. I have seen two older dogs (one was 2 the other I think was 4 very nice drive and steady nerved dogs) and there really was no great improvment in performance. What I seen on his video was a method that taught a dog to be clear, I do have doubts that it is a method that can be used with dogs that are not molded from pups using his training.(Most dogs) I have also not seen many people other then a small few, really get the most out of thier dogs from his method. One thing is for sure; he does. He is a constant winner. So there has to be something to it. I would like to go and train with him to fully understand how he trains.The thing wiht him is not so much his methods, but like all successfull trainers is they are training hard and everyday, and paying attention to detail.

My husband and his dog Lodi (Artemis vom Kiefern Tal) trained with Ivan for most of 2001, before Ivan moved to Florida. Lodi was 16 months old when they started training with Ivan, and already had had 8 months of very good bite development with another helper. Lodi thrived under Ivan's training methods, so I don't think it's quite correct to say the dog has to start as a puppy with Ivan. My husband wishes he had started with Ivan sooner for OB, as it might have prevented some of the training issues he's faced in Lodi's OB.

Lodi is a high drive dog, and yes, I think Ivan's training methods work best with high drive dogs. However, I know that Ivan has had success training less drivy dogs. The client's Rottie that Ivan's wife won the recent USRC Nationals with is not as high drive as the malis and shepherds that Ivan normally works with, but the dog obviously did well with Ivan's training anyway.

I don't recall if there were any Mink/Croc progeny training with Ivan when he was here. As far as these dogs being "handler aggressive", some PSD trainers have said that "hander aggression" is often due to mismanagement, caused by handlers who buy a dog and don't take the time to bond with him before correcting him, or who administer unfair corrections to a high fight drive dog. Since Ivan's training methods tend to use fewer corrections than many others use, and to administer them in a more measured way than many trainers apply, I suspect that Ivan's methods might have good success with so called "handler aggressive" dogs. But I dunno...

Laura

Laura you say that your husband is having ob. problems with his dog; what type of problems are you making reference to, and how could have Ivan's training helped, or maybe avoided these issues?

I haven't had the chance to work with Ivan - can only go by his video, but I don't see how he has a "method" or system. He simply uses operant conditioning, no mystery to it. The only part I didn't like was his excessive use of the non-reward marker (NRM). Despite the title of the video (Obedience without Conflict), I've rarely seen such a group of disheartened, dispirited dogs in my life. The severity of the NRMs was waaayyyy too much; it was acting as a positive punisher which was killing drive in all the demo dogs except one.

Laura,
Thanks for the input. I am using Ivans methods with a Mink, Crock, Fievel puppy. He is 14 months old and I have been using the methods since I got him at 9 weeks old.
I really like the results I am seeing. The problem I have is, that the members of our Schutzhund club all strongly disagree with me training him with these methods. They think he needs to be handled "harder" . He really is doing well. He has an out problem, but hopefully training will get us through it. I have seen several dogs from his lines that were trained through lots of compulsion and the results were not good at all. I will be taking him to the Bernard Flinks seminar in October and I am looking forward to learning more about how he trains.
I am hoping more people training the hard dogs with Ivans methods will let me know how it is going. I am making a lot of progess in my training by using Ivans "clear commmunication"
methods. I just keep second guessing myself at training every week when I hear all of the comments....
Cathi

Ived worked with Ivan and I like his method. Im not sure what Lee is talking about unless it is the part where Ivan only rewards after the realease. The release being the marker for the correct position.As opposed to the dog reacting to the body language before the reward, getting out of position and being rewarded for being out of position.Wich leads to dogs that crowd, rap,and jump up.Im describing a dog in "conflict" between doing its job correctly and trying to anticipate the reward.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dan, Cathi Windus:
I just keep second guessing myself at training every week when I hear all of the comments....
Cathi

Cathi, That is going to happen no matter who's method you are using... No matter what there will be the chatter in the background. You need to go forward with what is working for you and your dog. I know that is easier said than done, I train with a bunch of purist Dildei people, and I am constantly questioned about Flinks, usually in a non-sincere way. Then of course I hear "well, Dildei would..."

I just work away from them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Or go early and do my dog(s) first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lee, I saw that first video and have to agree that it was nothing more "new" than placing what I learned in Psy-101 in dog terms. If I hadn't taken quite a few psych classes it may have been helpful, but for me, the tape was nothing new. Glad I didn't buy it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I agree about the dogs looking flat and lifeless as well.

Originally posted by David Morris:
Im not sure what Lee is talking about unless it is the part where Ivan only rewards after the realease. The NRM (non-reward marker) that Lee mentioned is simply the word NO.

 Quote:

Originally posted by David Morris:
Im not sure what Lee is talking about unless it is the part where Ivan only rewards after the realease.

No, I mean the constant use of "uh-uh, no, what are you doing???, uh-uh" etc. to tell the dog that the behavior he is offering is not the one that you will reward. It clearly takes the wind right out of their sails but quick. These are obviously some very sensitive dogs. In fact, one little mal gets downright scared and avoids his wife when she returns to the dog and reaches for the leash. Not to mention the fact that all the NRMs are applied very late.