 fish oil and vit. E
#351307 - 12/11/2011 03:41 PM |
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this is from another post that Connie answered (salmon oil)
one 1000-gram gelcap per ten pounds of dog that I would recommend. (A 70-pound dog would get 7 gelcaps a day ....There must be Vitamin E provided as well, to protect the delicate PUFAs in oil supplements.
from Dr. Billinghurst on vit.E
10 to 20mg per kg per day
a few questions...
should the vit E be higher than this because of the suplimented fish oil
should I feed each at different times, E in morning, oil at night, or together?
also with the fish oil, is that an optimum dose, or can less be given, two of the girls will need 20 tabs a day(can't find in bottle local)
and the salmon oil is assuming a commercial diet ? the chicken we have is grass fed free range, higher O3, or does it matter( we did buy 300lbs of commercial backs and ground when we picked up last of ours)
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Dave Owen ]
#351309 - 12/11/2011 11:35 PM |
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"this is from another post that Connie answered (salmon oil)
"one 1000-gram gelcap per ten pounds of dog that I would recommend. (A 70-pound dog would get 7 gelcaps a day ....There must be Vitamin E provided as well, to protect the delicate PUFAs in oil supplements."
from Dr. Billinghurst on vit.E
10 to 20mg per kg per day
a few questions...
should the vit E be higher than this because of the suplimented fish oil"
Yes. Oil supplements will use available Vitamin E during processing in the body. The antioxidants added to the fish oil product are for protection in the sealed bottle only.
Fish oil does great things, but IMO the downside to giving it without E may outweigh the benefits. Not only could it result in an E deficiency, but PUFAs not protected from oxidation are in themselves a potential health hazard.
I was talking about fish oil, BTW, and not specifically salmon oil; I was including the muscle oil from the tiny fish too; also I was pointing out how spendy gelcaps of fish oil are for a medium or large dog and how liquid is far more sensible. 
"should I feed each at different times, E in morning, oil at night, or together?"
Together.
"... with the fish oil .... can less be given, two of the girls will need 20 tabs a day(can't find in bottle local)"
I would buy liquid (but see below). It's readily available in any health food store or online, or in fact from Leerburg (Grizzly brand).
and the salmon oil is assuming a commercial diet ? the chicken we have is grass fed free range, higher O3, or does it matter( we did buy 300lbs of commercial backs and ground when we picked up last of ours)
If you were feeding all grass-fed and free-range slaughter meats, and the poultry* was used only for RMBs, with all the added muscle meat coming from grass-fed (and not "grain-finished") meat, and that's the major source of fat in the diet, then yes, I do think you could cut way back on fish oil for healthy dogs with no skin issues and no inflammation-based conditions.
*
Poultry isn't raised on grass or pasture alone. With just one stomach, they aren't designed to turn fibrous plants into most or all of their nutrition the way ruminants are. Poultry animals are fed grains, and probably oil-seeds, regardless of indoor our outdoor, so there is nowhere near the increase in Omega 3s in poultry that there is in ruminants from being pasture- and grass-fed. Poultry in general is rich in Omega 6s, and when it has been more naturally fed, the increase in Omega 3s is mostly an increase in ALA, which dogs don't have the mechanism that humans have to convert to long-chain 3s (and it's inefficient and unreliable in humans).
I'm not a health professional.
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#351569 - 12/15/2011 01:08 PM |
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firstly, wow, Connie you really know nutrition. I have been googling, searching, reading for months and wow, THANK YOU...
a couple follow up questions, for the vit. E use the high end of the scale 20mg per kg per day? or higher?
giving together(oil and E )at one meal, or should it be split up to twice a day?
as for giving less fish oil, is there a basic maintinance amount, if I go with the full recomended amount we will go through a 64oz bottle each month
should a dogs organs get a resting period from the oil periodicaly, or no harm getting daily
and lastly can gel caps be given whole, or do the need to be squeezed?
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Dave Owen ]
#351586 - 12/15/2011 07:45 PM |
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for the vit. E use the high end of the scale 20mg per kg per day? or higher?
Vitamin E doesn't come this way, even if we wanted to break it down that finely. There are four or five readily available sizes of gelcaps. By "higher end," did you mean of dog weight or fish oil given?
giving together(oil and E )at one meal, or should it be split up to twice a day?
Fish oil and E together.
as for giving less fish oil, is there a basic maintinance amount, if I go with the full recomended amount we will go through a 64oz bottle each month
Any is better than none. IMO, the Grizzly instructions are the basic maintenance amount. However, are you feeding fish any days?
should a dogs organs get a resting period from the oil periodicaly, or no harm getting daily
No harm IMO. It's a fat ..... a macronutrient. If you fasted the dogs occasionally, you would probably skip fish oil too. Otherwise, it's no different (IMO) from thinking of a resting period with no protein, or no animal fat, etc.
and lastly can gel caps be given whole, or do the need to be squeezed?
Most dogs love them, like caviar. If the dog doesn't yet know what's inside and acts suspicious, you might stick a needle in one end (at but not ahead of feeding time) to let the contents be known.
I don't think we've had more than three dogs discussed here in all these years and threads who ended up refusing gelcaps with either E or fish oil in them. 
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#351595 - 12/15/2011 08:27 PM |
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. By "higher end," did you mean of dog weight or fish oil given?
fish oil given, eg. bridget almost 100kg, so 10mg per kg is 1000mg of vit.e at maintence level, high end 2000mg vit E.
If she gets full dose of fish oil, the 1000mg of vit E will not be enough(I'm guessing) so should she get the high end at 2000mg
it would be 5-400mg tabs
if she gets half of the fish oil, she would not need as much vit E (not sure if I am getting my thought out right)
giving together(oil and E )at one meal, or should it be split up to twice a day?
Fish oil and E together.
what I was questioning is to give half of the fish oil and E in morning feed, the other half at night to even out the assimilation
I'm not feeding fish as it is cost prohibative in my area, but will give the odd can here and there
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Dave Owen ]
#351601 - 12/15/2011 09:35 PM |
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"eg. bridget almost 100kg, "
You have a 220 pound dog?! 
Do you maybe have a 100-pound dog (45.5 kg)?
If you have a 100-pound dog getting 10 grams of fish oil, then the usual dose of Vitamin E would be 600 IU (International Units)
If your Vitamin E comes in mg, post back and I will correct this. I have never seen it sold in anything but IU, but you're in Canada so I'm not sure.
Please clarify her weight and I'll give you the E dosage for the full fish oil of a gram per ten pounds (4.5 kg) of dog and also for half of that.
Please also double-check your E. Tell me if it's not in IU measure; I have a Vitamin E IU-to-mg conversion.
(Again, the E to support oil supplements doesn't really go the way you're describing it, as a function of dog weight, except broadly and somewhat indirectly.)
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Dave Owen ]
#351607 - 12/15/2011 10:30 PM |
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Just thought I might add $0.02 worth here. Krill oil has its own antioxidants and you don't need to worry about vitamin E dosing. Its more potent than fish oil, doesn't have to be refrigerated, better not to. I take it myself, I highly recommend the mercola brand, some brands are junk. Just thought I'd mention that.
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#351608 - 12/15/2011 10:31 PM |
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"eg. bridget almost 100kg, "
You have a 220 pound dog?!
Do you maybe have a 100-pound dog (45.5 kg)?
Yes, Bridget 215lbs, so almost 100kg.(have not weighed for a long time so maybe a bit more) She's an old english mastiff, Delilah her half sister is just over 200lbs(dad is 278 lbs)
our vit. E is in IU, which I think is the same as mg.(correct me if wrong)
I'm not trying to cheep out on the dogs suppliments, but the volumes needed for their size is why I'm wondering about minimums
I think why I think in terms of weight is to get a minimum requirment for supliments and vitamins, knowing that a good diet will defenetaly boost the #'s to be beyond suficient
The relationship of the fish oil and E is why I am wondering, if the fish oil uses 'X' amount, does the minimum daily vit E leave any for the body? so for bridget 1000IU is min, and 2000IU is the high end, (the best price on E comes in 400IU)
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Dave Owen ]
#351655 - 12/16/2011 06:14 PM |
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Yes, Bridget 215lbs, so almost 100kg.(have not weighed for a long time so maybe a bit more) She's an old english mastiff, Delilah her half sister is just over 200lbs(dad is 278 lbs)
Well, I admit I did not expect that answer!
our vit. E is in IU, which I think is the same as mg.(correct me if wrong)
IU doesn't equal mg. There really is no "one-size-fits-all" conversion of IU to mg; it depends on the substance. However, if we are all talking IU, we're all good. (If we were not, we'd go by 1 IU vitamin E = 0.67 mg vitamin E.)
I'm not trying to cheep out on the dogs suppliments, but the volumes needed for their size is why I'm wondering about minimums
I think why I think in terms of weight is to get a minimum requirment for supliments and vitamins, knowing that a good diet will defenetaly boost the #'s to be beyond suficient
There is no minimum requirement for long-chain 3s. I'm not trying to be evasive or vague when I say that it's strictly individual. (Supplementing with 3s is done to improve the ratio of 6s to 3s, which in a modern (human) diet in North America is commonly 10 to 1, 6s to 3s, and often as bad as 20 to 1. Depending on who's talking, a goal might be 5 to 1 or better --- maybe even 2 to 1. You can see that a big part of this ratio is the amount of 6s consumed. So there can be no absolute minimum suggested amount of 3s without knowing something about the individual's diet.)
Briefly, as we've talked about lots here, 6s promote inflammation (a necessary immune response) and 3s promote keeping inflammation from going wild.
That's why I mentioned in such detail the question of how much of these dogs' diets consisted of wild or grass-fed and -pastured meats.
The relationship of the fish oil and E is why I am wondering, if the fish oil uses 'X' amount, does the minimum daily vit E leave any for the body? so for bridget 1000IU is min, and 2000IU is the high end, (the best price on E comes in 400IU)
OK, I getcha. Again, I am not a health professional, but I have read (for example, by R.M. Clemmons, DVM, PhD and others) that there is no known toxic level of natural E FOR DOGS (I'm not talking about humans at all here! Even cats do not fall into this discussion, with their vulnerability to hepatolipidosis), or at least (even at crazy lab levels), none has yet been shown. (This of course is unique among the fat-soluble vitamins.) I have several times read a general caveat that staying below 4000-6000 IU per day is recommended.
Remember that this all presupposes natural Vitamin E, not dl-alpha.
Are you planning to supplement with fish oil at the one-gram-per-ten-pounds rate?
Also, is either dog overweight?
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Re: fish oil and vit. E
[Re: Tresa Hendrix ]
#351656 - 12/16/2011 08:43 PM |
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Just thought I might add $0.02 worth here. Krill oil has its own antioxidants and you don't need to worry about vitamin E dosing. Its more potent than fish oil, doesn't have to be refrigerated, better not to. I take it myself, I highly recommend the mercola brand, some brands are junk. Just thought I'd mention that.
I'm not yet convinced about krill oil being superior. I think maybe the results aren't all in, although I do read the emerging research. JMO, though! It's definitely interesting.
And if I were going to take krill oil, I too would probably make it one that Mercola recommended or sold.
" ... some brands are junk"
I'll say. Almost half of the tested brands fell apart on one claim or another when ConsumerLab wrote them up.
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