Hi, I am new to the forum. I am looking for input (and words of encouragement?!) from people who have gone through the Leerburg Establishing Pack Structure "program" with their dogs. We bought the DVD a few months back and had already incorporated some of the general advice, but finally decided to bite the bullet and essentially start from scratch. Lenney is our spayed female mixed breed (possibly Husky/Rottie/???). We adopted her in May 2009. She is very good-natured and has solid nerves -- thank goodness, as my hubby and I bungle our way through 1st time dog ownership. We're proud that we've done a lot of things right, but at this point also very frustrated that we've somehow failed to earn Lenney's respect. As Ed Frawley says, "you can have a dog that will obey 80% of the time, but still doesn't respect you." I think that sums up our situation well. I would love to hear from others, especially those who followed the recommended "program" with adult dogs with whom they also wanted a "fresh start." I don't know if we can do this alone! We started on Sunday, and have been close to giving up several times (it's Thursday today)-- the barking, whining, yowling, crate-rattling, etc., etc. has frayed our nerves, and it's so hard to stay emotionally neutral.
Does "crate submission" usually happen suddenly (ie. a transformation from one day to the next), or will Lenney's acceptance of her new pack status be more gradual? Besides being calm and submissive in her crate, what other changes should I notice when will let me know she is ready for Step 2, and the "privilege" of being out of her crate (albeit on a leash and under our control) for part of the day? Any input would be most welcome. We can't tell any of our dog-owning friends what we are undertaking: they would probably think us barbaric! Many thanks in advance!

Are you familiar with NILIF?

Had she not been in a crate before?

Are you maintaining exercise?

ditto the nilif, my girl went from growley to obedient

good luck and hang in there YOUR REWARDS WIIL COME

I do know that NILIF is an acronym for nothing in life is free, but other than that...?

When we first adopted Lenney we used the crate for a while, before we knew that we could trust her with the 3 cats. Her first few months with us, she always stayed in her crate overnight. But since then, it has been collecting dust in the basement. Getting her to go into the crate is not a problem, even now, because she always gets a little treat for doing so. It's staying in there (and being ignored) for most of the day that is causing all the ruckus.

We are keeping up with her exercise: brisk 45 minute walks (about 3-4km) twice a day -- but in keeping with Ed Frawley's recommendations, these are "boring" walks -- I am not incorporating any training or otherwise interacting with her when we go. And when we get home, back into the crate she goes.

We've noticed a bit of improvement yesterday and today (she took longer breaks and actually relaxed a bit between tantrums) but this is still far from what I imagine "crate submission" to be!

Another day coming to a close... still at my wits' end with all the barking, whining and crate-rattling. We live in a small house, so not much choice of where to put the crate, but will try a blanket over it this evening. Would still love to hear from other "graduates" that this technique actually works and it will be all be worth it in the end! Anyone out there???

On a positive note (I think)... on our walks today, she did turn back to "check in" with me occasionally -- behaviour I'm not really used to -- and at least twice she actually touched my hand with her nose. (Generally she's off in her own little doggy sniffing world, unless I say something or offer a treat to get her attention...)

It works.

Can you describe the procedure for giving the supper dish and for opening the crate?

I/we could probably give you much better feedback if we knew the previous unwanted behavior/attitude. Can you detail this a little: "we've somehow failed to earn Lenney's respect."


BTW:
We've noticed a bit of improvement yesterday and today (she took longer breaks and actually relaxed a bit between tantrums)

On a positive note (I think)... on our walks today, she did turn back to "check in" with me occasionally -- behaviour I'm not really used to -- and at least twice she actually touched my hand with her nose.

 Quote: Marina Latulippe

I do know that NILIF is an acronym for nothing in life is free, but other than that...?

This has been so hard for me, my mastiffs thrive on free love and companionship,

my rottweiler who is so cute to me(perma puppy in size by comparison) thrives on nilif and companionship

Think of when you wrote

-- but in keeping with Ed Frawley's recommendations, these are "boring" walks -- I am not ...... or otherwise interacting with her when we go

that is a great start to nilif

eventually when you start marker training you will "mark" things like --

(she took longer breaks and actually relaxed a bit between tantrums)

and--

she did turn back to "check in" with me occasionally

and---


at least twice she actually touched my hand with her nose.


that last one you could turn into a comand like "touch"

Thank you so much for your feedback so far... I actually DO have confidence that this program will work (short term pain for long term gain) but it feels like a pretty lonely journey at the moment!

Re: feeding routine and opening the crate. We wait for a "calm spell" before approaching the crate. When we go to open it, she must be sitting before the door opens. Likewise, she must sit before she goes back in.

A bit more background about our girl... VERY high prey drive; low pack drive (when we have her off leash and walk with friends and their dogs, Lenney will often go off by herself.) I walk her in a harness that has the leash clipped to the front of the chest, otherwise she can, and does, pull me off my feet; she pulls like crazy when we walk in town (less when we are walking along the road close to home in the country); when we see other people walking their dogs, she REALLY REALLY wants to go and meet them (the dogs). She also commands center stage when we have guests over -- though she can sometimes be aloof with us, she finds guests terribly interesting.

I have done quite a bit of training with Lenney, including marker training, but her recall is inconsistent when off leash. She can give us a beautiful recall many times in a row, and then suddenly it's as if she has become deaf.

She has a tendency to grab things (socks, papers) and play keep away. She demands to be petted.

When we put her in her "place" while we are eating (on a long down stay), she sometimes just casually gets up and walks away. Or resists going there in the first place.

She is a "runner"... when my husband took her for a walk last Friday afternoon, she bolted when she saw a fox. His arm hit a tree, he let go of the leash and we lost her for 5 hours.

Wow. I don't think I'm giving a great impression of Lenney! But really, she is a lovely, sweet, good-natured gal. I think where we've gone wrong is to treat her as an equal, a buddy. We need to claim our leadership status back, and are hoping we are now back on the right path... We have the Est. Pack Structure DVD, and had already incorporated many of Ed's tips. Now we are going back to Step 1. I also bought the Basic Obedience DVD.

(Oh what a relief: Lenney is snoring peacefully in her crate at the moment!)

One thing because it's so important:

" .... her recall is inconsistent when off leash."

Then she cannot be off leash. Have you read any of the detailed recall-training threads here? (I don't want to re-type the wheel. )


ETA:
She has a tendency to grab things (socks, papers) and play keep away.

You have trained her that this is a fun game. Have you read about teaching the retrieve (and drop it)?



She demands to be petted.

She wouldn't if it never ever worked. Someone has rewarded that demand. Rewarding it one time out of twenty is almost worse than every time .... it can rev up that "OK, I know this can work if I really really work at it!"

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/30/2011 06:45 PM)
Edit reason: eta

All good points... things are going to have to change around here (:

Re: grabbing stuff. What we've done recently (rather than chase her) is to ignore her for a few minutes, then go to another room and say something along the lines of "Bring it here, Lenney, bring the sock!" When she does and puts it in my hand, I trade for a nice food reward. That works well, but doesn't actually prevent the grabbing in the first place!

I do have a question about our walks at this stage of the game. Two scenarios that frequently come up: 1) a person approaches in the distance, ie. taking a walk. As soon as Lenney sees him/her (even several 100 feet distant) her head and tail go up she pulls on the leash and fixates on the person. She has a similar reaction when a car slows down behind us to pull into a driveway -- she constantly checks back over her shoulder and acts nervous/edgy. 2) A squirrel, fox, rabbit or other small critter runs across the road ahead of us -- her prey drive kicks into high gear and I simply "do not exist" for her for a few minutes.

How can I, at this point, convey that I am the leader and she should focus on me instead of the distractions? Normally I would try to get her attention back with treats or a toy, but I don't think I'm supposed to interact with/train/reward her at the moment, if I understand Step 1 of the program correctly.

Thanks for any suggestions. PS I am really considering a prong collar, but even if I order it now, it wouldn't arrive for a while (I live in Canada). I am also worried that I would somehow use it incorrectly and end up doing more harm than good.