This morning, I feel about ready to throw in the towel with this whole establishing pack structure thing. Only two things are keeping me going right now: first, that I will feel even more like a failure if I give up, and second, reading about other people's successes on this forum.

We've had Lenney for about 2.5 years -- our first dog, adopted from the SPCA when she was about 10 months old. I believe she has some deeply ingrained behaviours and value systems that came from her puppyhood -- she is very independent and finds just about anything in her environment, particularly outside, more interesting than people... including my husband and myself.

Since coming across the Leerburg website several months ago, I have come to realize, that we might have a very different dog today, if we knew 2.5 years ago what we know now. But, it's never too late to change, right?

On Christmas Day, after Lenney blew us off yet again on an off-leash outing, we finally realized that at the root of our challenges with Lenney was "simply" a lack of respect.

We are now almost two weeks into the "isolation phase" of Ed's Establishing Pack Structure DVD. Lenney's tantrums in the crate are thankfully subsiding. We've continued her twice daily walks (about 2 miles each time), but have done no other training with her.

When we walk, it is as if I don't exist: everything, even a pebble on the road is more interesting than I am. Well, today I thought maybe a little positive reinforcement would be in order, you know, to make me more "interesting." So I brought along some good treats, and whenever she even gave a hint of looking back to "check in" with me, I marked it with "yes!" and gave her a treat. Well pretty quick she was looking back at me every few steps, knowing there was a tasty tidbit in it for her. It just didn't feel right. I felt like a gumball dispenser, not a leader. I came back home feeling confused and frustrated -- definitely not a leadership state of mind.

No wonder my dog has taken over the leadership role; I realize I don't know how how to do it. Can people really change from non-leaders into leaders? If I just go through the motions, and do all the things I'm "supposed" to do as pack leader, will Lenney not pick up on my self-doubt? Has anyone out there gone through this? I hope I don't sound too pathetic(!), but my self-esteem is really taking a beating right now. Leaders are supposed to be confident, and I definitely don't feel confident at all.

(As a side note, I have done quite a bit of marker training and obedience with Lenney. She's actually pretty good, but as Ed says, you can have a dog that will listen 80% of the time, but that still doesn't respect you. That's us in a nutshell.)

I don't know whats on the pack structure thing Marina, but why don't you forget about what she's doing on walks right now, with all the distractions she finds. Just keep her on a long line so she can't blow you off.

Then away from all that, in a place like your house or yard so she can focus on you, teach her something. Sit, or down, come would be good one,just alter what you've been doing a little, anything so you and her will have a success to build on. I know you've been training with her, but just stick to one thing for a while and make it really, really good.

Don't beat yourself up. Don't compare her to other dogs. You'll have her respect soon enough.

 Quote: steve strom

I don't know whats on the pack structure thing Marina, but why don't you forget about what she's doing on walks right now, with all the distractions she finds. Just keep her on a long line so she can't blow you off.

Then away from all that, in a place like your house or yard so she can focus on you, teach her something. Sit, or down, come would be good one,just alter what you've been doing a little, anything so you and her will have a success to build on. I know you've been training with her, but just stick to one thing for a while and make it really, really good.

Don't beat yourself up. Don't compare her to other dogs. You'll have her respect soon enough.

Ditto!

And also, pick up the pace on those walks! The dog should be marching along "in the zone" beside you until you give release signals when she can pee, sniff, etc. -- then back to marching. Pebbles at that pace are not even visible, never mind interesting, as you march briskly along.

I have to find that darned video again of Michael walking Turbo ....

 Quote: Marina Latulippe

#1 she is very independent and finds just about anything in her environment, particularly outside, more interesting than people... including my husband and myself.

#2 Since coming across the Leerburg website several months ago, I have come to realize, that we might have a very different dog today, if we knew 2.5 years ago what we know now. But, it's never too late to change, right?

#3I hope I don't sound too pathetic(!),

#1 IMHO thats a dog thing, I still struggle daily with pisa

#2 never to late, I wish I had found this enormas resource 4 years ago, I would have got only one mastiff, and never would have got pisa, she is way more dog than MY temperament is suited for (I love sittin around petting the big dogs)

#3 no, but I know I have, but want to do better for my dogs so whatever

hang in there, sorry I can't offer much more than support

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

... And also, pick up the pace on those walks! The dog should be marching along "in the zone" beside you until you give release signals when she can pee, sniff, etc. -- then back to marching. Pebbles at that pace are not even visible, never mind interesting, as you march briskly along.

I have to find that darned video again of Michael walking Turbo ....

Found it!

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=29062&page=1

Check out the pace of the JRT. See any pebble-sniffing, focusing on wildlife, looking for a dog to practice stink-eye on?

And a comment I made later in that thread:

Can I add that this is the "marching right along" pace I mean when working with a reactive (adult) dog so s/he is focused on moving with me and not making stink eye across the street? Michael's dog is BUSY, man!

Marina,I'm not going to offer any training advice - I'm not qualified to give it, that is something I always leave to the experts, the people who I consult are right here, so you are in the right place

What I will offer you is hope, back last summer I hit a bump in the road with 2 of my dogs, they are very large, very immature handfuls who need constant keeping in check.

I had just come through a very dark time with a previous dog and I was losing my confidence to the point that when I walked them I completely over reacted to every other person, with or without dogs of their own, I was anticipating trouble, and as with all self fullfilling prophesies, I got it, the big Boerboel male, who since I got him weighed at christmas now weighs over 11 stone, (I am 5ft nothing and weigh 2 stone less than him!) was picking up on my stress and trying to drag me across the road to any yappy dog that we encountered.

You can imagine, with 4 dogs on 2 leads coupled together, this was not something I could keep allowing, and I started to believe I was no longer the pack leader they deserved, so I invested in another e-collar, took the Boerboels out on their own and worked and worked on it until I could be sure I was on top of it; I'm not suggesting for one minute you need an e-collar, this was just something I needed to get, because I only had one left working, and I had to keep swapping them over to work with.

Now I always have the e's on, but only have to bleep them, no longer on stim, and I walk all 4 of them to heel, off lead over the fields and pass by dogs without a glance.

My long winded point is, when you lose your confidence, your dog will know, and while they don't play up for the hell of it, they do know when you are not firing on all 4, I am totally convinced of that, and without you being on the ball, they take over the walk and damn well please themselves, which is an accident waiting to happen.

Give yourself a talking to, remember the dog needs you to guide him, he is looking to you for the answers, take on all the advice you get here, even if no 2 members tell you the same thing, they have all had problems like yours and have sorted them in different but effective ways, whatever the dog in front of them needs at that time, they are as different as people when it comes to character, and to quote CM, in a pack of wild dogs, there is only one pack leader who the others follow and defer to, they don't want to lead, they want to be lead.

Keep the faith, put in the hard graft, listen to what you are being advised and don't let the dog know you are feeling crap, it won't help him in anyway - lots of luck, keep us posted

"there is only one pack leader who the others follow and defer to, they don't want to lead, they want to be lead."


This too is clearly illustrated in the video of Michael walking Turbo. See all those strays? They saw a pack leader, and they followed.

You will see time and time again a dog whose owner is ineffectual or weak or ignorant of the leadership role .... such a dog will often try to join an assertive leader-type when one appears.

And I'm a believer in "fake it till you make it," too. Stand tall. Don't focus nervously on the dog. Move along and expect the dog to move with you. Set the pace and direction and decide where and when the releases (for pee, sniff, etc.) happen.

If you have to move away from a potential high-level distraction, do it calmly and purposefully. Just change direction.

Thanks so much to everyone for your collective pep talk. I've been feeling so down on myself these last couple of days -- I actually had tears in my eyes when I read all your supportive comments and words of advice (sorry, I know that sounds really corny, but it's true) So I guess it will be "fake it 'til I make it" from here on in. Tomorrow is a new day, and I'll just forge ahead.

As for our walks, maybe I'll have to take up jogging? I do seriously "hoof it" with Lenney, but she's always able to bump up the pace just a little more... must be the husky in her. And her skill in seamlessly picking up raccoon turds and discarded sandwich crusts without breaking stride could almost be admirable, if it wasn't so annoying.

Tracey, it was inspiring to read that you've been in a similar place and have moved beyond it. Steve, I think working on little successes might be just what I need at the moment; I'll try that.
Thanks again, everyone.

Marina - I'm reading all your descriptions and I think your biggest issue might just be lack of training. Honestly from everything I've read it seems like it might be 20% leadership, but 80% training.

I'd probably dispense with the long hours of crating and instead give her plenty of structured exercise (with no chance to blow you off), a few short and motivational training sessions (practice, practice, practice high motivational recalls) and then a moderate amount of down time in the crate.

If she likes to run and chase, teach her how to play fetch. It's agreat way to engage your dog and exercise them at the same time. Another idea is teaching her to run along side of a bike - my youngest dog loves this and it's great way to give her a more intense structured workout!