Background My wife and myself and 7 year old son got our first dog together (Lucky) at a shelter on 1/ 7/ 12, he is a border collie mix 35 lbs, 1 to 1 1/2 years old, we let him free in the house and back yard the first 2 days while I searched for a training method (should have done that first), I would categorize him as a hard, non aggressive dog, he is very friendly when not being aloof. He was a stray so we have no idea his background. We bought him toys and played with him the first 2 days, although now looking back he was just playing with himself while we watched, he did not chew or bother anything that we did not give him, he did not potty in the house and very rarely outside for that matter and he wouldn't eat his dog food, but he seemed really happy.
On his walks down the walk path ( we have many miles of paths right outside our door filled with walkers, dog walkers, bikers and joggers), he wanted to pull all three of us everywhere, not cool, 2 large dogs were being walked by and the guy stopped to say hello and Lucky tried to tear into them like a maniac, he had his dogs under control and I gave a yank on the leash and he calmed down, but minutes earlier my son had the leash.
His first night we did put him in a crate he had to be forced in but he didn't growl or anything then he whined for about 10 minutes and we didn't here another peep until someone walked by him the next morning.
Now on 1/9 we got up he just spent his 2nd night in the crate quietly ( although having to be pushed in again), he followed us around while i got my son ready for school he hopped in the car with us ( this was our vision) I held his leash while my son got out even though he didn't seem to notice that he got out, and we went home. I should mention that that night it had stormed all night and it still was, lightning and thunder for about 8 hours straight now, Lucky would not go out in it before we left so he's been holding it for quite a while now. got in the garage and he would not get out of the car PERIOD, I got upset shut the door and went in the house to make a decision, and pack structure it was going to be, so I went out to the car scooped up the dog in my arms (I realized while doing this that I was a little afraid of what might happen if I made him do something he didn't want to do, I also realized that was not going to work). so I scooped him up and put him in the crate while I watched the dvd, If your new here and reading this, I think you should watch the dvd before you get the dog, as now I'm trying to learn on the fly and any mistakes I am making are probably being noticed by Lucky.
The question is I can't figure out how long to do this phase, lucky is very calm and submissive in the crate He just won't willingly go in there, I started feeding him in there on day 2 and he cleaned his bowl for the first time, and now 3 times in a row. and he is silent in there right now when I should be walking him instead of typing.
I forgot to mention the morning it was raining it kept raining till 5 that evening, I had taken him out 3 times in the rain on the leash and he would not go, he finally pee'd at about 7 that night, it had been at least 24 hours "wow nice bladder".
Question 2, my wife went out of town on day 2, my son and I are not at all enjoying not getting to pet this sweet dog, when can we pet him again. We want to do what we have to do because he can't live with us unless he is going to listen to us.

So ?#1 When do I know phase one is over?
and ?#2 Can we pet him in phase 2?
and ?#3 If I can't talk to him and I ignore him on his walks, do I just let him pull me all over the place? I have been apparently just nagging him to stop so far.

Thanks
Chris

Welcome! Good for you for adopting a shelter dog!

I'd probably focus on a couple of things right now and set the DVD aside for a bit. (Please start with no children holding the leash yet.)

In a few sentences, are these the main issues right now?

Reluctant to enter crate
Reluctant to pee in the rain, even on leash
Reactive to dogs he is forced to stand in close proximity to on walks
Pulling on leash during walks along paths loaded with bikes, walkers, other dogs, etc.

All of this is doable.



PS
In one sentence, what does "a hard dog" mean to you? This type of terminology is best avoided, unless writer and reader KNOW they all have the same definition. And trust me, we don't.

You have had this dog 3 days or so, right? Even if we did all see eye-to-eye on "aloof" or "hard," after 3 or 4 days you really know very little about this dog, and he knows very little about you.

Yes on the reluctant reluctant reactive and pulling, although to pee or not to pee, he did hold it until he got ready to go, and he's going much better now, so I'm not to concerned about that right now.

As I read in the material on this sight I believe a hard dog took your corrections and looked at you like "that's all you've got" and a soft dog cried and acted like it was going to die, so as little as I know right now I'm guessing he's a 7 or 8 on the hard scale, but I'm new and could be wrong.

After looking at many other questions I thought I would try to give a detailed, although 4 days background, most answers I was seeing started with asking these questions.

And for aloof I could be way off base we are new to him and so is everything else so he has a lot on his plate right now.

And how do I get to know the dog when we are all ignoring him? that's part of my question.

I just think if I took him out of the crate right now and brought him to my chair on the leash he would sit at my feet and not complain, so when should I let him out?

Thanks for you help,
Chris

Hi Chris, I am certainly not qualified to make suggestions on any of your challenges with Lucky because after 2-1/2 years of dog ownership I am just now realizing how much I missed the mark on leadership myself! That being said, I will follow your posts with interest, as I am now in the midst of RE-establishing pack structure with my gal. I sure wish I had known how to do it right the first time -- I would be so much further ahead with Lenney now! You are in good hands with this forum -- you'll learn a lot and have a great support network. Good luck to you

As I read in the material on this sight I believe a hard dog took your corrections and looked at you like "that's all you've got" and a soft dog cried and acted like it was going to die, so as little as I know right now I'm guessing he's a 7 or 8 on the hard scale, but I'm new and could be wrong.

That's actually a pretty good definition. I started out not thinking you could even evaluate hardness in such a short "fitting in" time, and I still have to ask what hard physical correction he has needed so soon. I'm not trying to be confrontational at all, but reminding you that he is completely new to your home and you.

After looking at many other questions I thought I would try to give a detailed, although 4 days background, most answers I was seeing started with asking these questions.

You did.

I just think if I took him out of the crate right now and brought him to my chair on the leash he would sit at my feet and not complain, so when should I let him out?

I would recommend tethering the dog to you as a jump-start on many things, including dog-as-follower, bonding, and learning his body language around potty.

I also think that it's way too soon for just about any new dog, regardless of reactivity, to be expected to stand quietly while you talk with someone who has three strange dogs with him. Even the walks on pathways loaded with humans, dogs, bikes, etc. .... this too is pretty sink-or-swim for a dog who has no idea yet of his pack structure, etc. Is it possible to walk him at off-times for a while, and march along at a pace that doesn't have him dragging you, while you choose release times and places for the dog to sniff and pee while you stand still?

And how do I get to know the dog when we are all ignoring him? that's part of my question.

Again, for me (although this won't be universal), I might set aside the DVD (a great one, IMO) for a bit, practice NILIF, and see what you have. JMO.

You have watched it enough to get the gist of being pretty aloof right now, right? And NILIF? And not getting down on the floor for wrestling, etc.?

I am also going to recommend desensitizing research here. If you plug in the terms (two searches) desensitize and desensitizing, and expand the date range to two or three years, you'll see (among other things) that you're kind of flooding him on these busy-area walks and stopping to interact with strange dogs.

"Advanced search" is what you want, up there to the right.

Hi Marina, Thank you for your support and interest, hope you and Lenney have an enjoyable second time around.

Chris

That's actually a pretty good definition. I started out not thinking you could even evaluate hardness in such a short "fitting in" time, and I still have to ask what hard physical correction he has needed so soon. I'm not trying to be confrontational at all, but reminding you that he is completely new to your home and you.

Yeah I got the definition right but I think i missed the meaning, I have not come close to a hard correction, I only just last night read the definitions of the corrections and I am certain I have not reached a level 4, which is probably why he said is that all you gothttp://leerburg.com/forums/images/icons/default/wink.gif.

I would recommend tethering the dog to you as a jump-start on many things, including dog-as-follower, bonding, and learning his body language around potty.

He is leashed to my ankle as we speak, he is resting his head on my foot, it's kind of awkward trying to move around the house this way though any suggestions on cooking and cleaning while attached to the dog----- I know I begged to let him out now I'm complaining, just kidding, seriously just looking for suggestions.

I also think that it's way too soon for just about any new dog, regardless of reactivity, to be expected to stand quietly while you talk with someone who has three strange dogs with him.

Got it, it was our first day and it was a bit of a surprise I have not let my son have the leash since then and that was before I started the program so we do not stop I just pay attention and keep moving he passes by most with just a look, sometimes he tries to charge into the street after a truck or a bus but I got him he's not going anywhere.

There are no guarantees but there are some better times and routes we could take.

On a side note Our walk this afternoon a lady had a 3 foot tall poodle a medium size dog and a chihuahua, the chihuahua wanted to kill us, I had him standing straight up on the leash for a second, we kept moving and he forgot it in no time.




Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/11/2012 02:48 PM)
Edit reason: I italicized the quotes.

You will get a rhythm of when you must crate him and when you can tether him to your belt with a light line.

You did good when you just kept on moving past the dogs. I would also keep myself between the dog and the passersby. One thing you want the new dog to perceive is that you, the pack leader, are between his triggers and himself. This is part of you, the pack leader, deciding on the appropriate reactions, rather than dog perceiving that it's his job. This takes a little time, a lot of standing tall and calmly moving along, and tons of leadership indoors and out.

Tethering the dog to you emphasizes over and over that you are his new pack leader, just as marching along at YOUR pace and choosing the times and places when you stop and allow the dog to be a dog and pee, sniff, etc., do.

Soon you'll be teaching a simple command, such as sit, and requiring that it be complied with to earn the supper bowl, the walk-leash, etc.

Do you know about marker training?



P.S.

Just want to add that a perception of a strong pack leader is security to the dog.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/11/2012 02:59 PM)
Edit reason: PS