Just a short follow up on a previous posting.

Firstly I wanted to thank Steve, Ram and Mara for their comments on the video I posted, and to say that I have now incorporated these suggestions into our training. (Earlier tech problems seem to have resolved themselves and I can now post again!)

I am finding that we can work with different toys and objects now for the pick up. The different textures and sizes of objects seem to be helping the understanding that the training games can apply to any object. The hold is also improving, I think for the same reason; the variety of surfaces present varying degrees of difficulty to maintain a hold, so Lusi has adapted to this.

I found MEs quote: "There are no suicidal rabbits" from his "Tugs" video to be a really useful mantra in guiding our games- to use objects that are moving away from the dog not towards the dog/into the dog's mouth.

Steve...you asked if we were intending to train for obedience competition. At first this had not been our intention but both Lusi and I are enjoying our training together so much that it may be that we do decide to compete in obedience. Certainly I want to be using methods that will not create conflicts down the line.

I shall post another video soon to show our updated progress! Meanwhile I am reposting the first video since the thread got interrupted due to the tech difficulties!
Shaping the Retrieve

The only thing I was going to say Lisabet is that its important to remember a formal retrieve is an obedience. Its not the same as a play retrieve, so for that reason, your dog needs to know she has to do it. Even in a motivational retrieve, she has to know that.

When your tossing the toy in the begining like that, I think that should only be for one reason, to teach her to come back to you with it. Your really not marking hold just because she catches it.

I think this video is a pretty close match to what your doing. its controlled a lot better though so that its clear to the dog whats expected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfW223Wz-08

Personally, In the begining, I place the object in their mouth and teach them to hold. I've had it explained to me thats the first step in showing them they have to do it. The retrieve dvd from ME shows him using pvc, I used a dowel with my Shepherd.

You don't have to use force, its just their perception of the whole thing. What I want is him to know is the dumbell is the object he has to return to me and then I will reward him. If he doesnt I'm witholding that reward. Then its just like anything else you're going to do. Heeling, recall, sit. All the same pieces linked together from an obedience routine.

Steve I really appreciate your comments. I looked at the video link too that you posted and got a much clearer understanding of the regime Ram had been discussing earlier for the obedience retrieve.

The problem I had was when I tried to simply place objects in Lusi's mouth. At the beginning stage I was getting very little sustained interest. She's quick to learn things that she likes doing...so I had to rethink how could I get the hold? This seemed to be through doing it with more motion and more than than one movement. So pick up and hold worked. We have certainly generated more engagement through the games, so I could try now to emulate the system in the video. From what I could see in the video though, it was not using a "Shaping" methodology...in contrast to say Cindy with Rush picking up PVC pipe which was a definite shaping.

Thats part of it, they arent supposed to like having it put in their mouth. You use that to build the hold. You place it in her mouth, she drops it. Nope, put it back in her mouth. Your teaching her she has to hold it till you give her permission to not hold it.

Bringing it back to you is taught separately with the playing which you can do while your teaching hold.

You always have to adapt things to your dog. At one point I thought my dog didnt like the dumbell because I had used a wood dowel to teach the hold. What it actually turned out to be was a problem with "Dead Prey" I had to let him go out for it before it stopped moving and then wean away from that building anticipation. They all have something.

I think shaping is a pretty general term. It sounds lioke you're kinda somewhere between free shaping and back chaining where step by step, you're shaping something like in the video.

That's very helpful Steve!

When I was doing the video I was on a free shaping mindset. Ram introduced me to the idea of backchaining the sequence you describe for an obedience retrieve and that was when I encountered the diffidence over the hold.

Having said that, just doing all the play with materials of different textures, (and colours) has been interesting; Lusi is definitely learning the "feel" of wood, rope and plastic! So hopefully our play has just provided some intro work for the more serious obedience retrieve!

Hi Lisabet,

Here is another example of a shaped retrieve with embedded youtube videos - Clicker Retrieve - schutzhund-training.com

The pick up is taught first, followed by the hold, then the back half.

- Louise Jollyman -
'It's Bode, he's famous!'
http://www.bodeus.com
http://www.brimwylf.com
http://www.schutzhund-training.com

Louise, Thank you very much for those video clip links, they were really great to watch! I am going to continue to use marker rather than clicker training but I am getting a much better feel now for how we should be moving forward. (And by the way, Bode is a very lovely dog!)

As a short anecdote to our training, my husband took Lusi out for a run in the cornfield yesterday and started throwing corncobs for her. Now I would never have dreamed this scenario up because I am the primary caregiver and trainer, so I would not have asked for this:

My husband discovered that she was very happy to retrieve a thrown corncob and could in fact isolate the exact corncob he had handled and return with it, but only if he handled the corncob with bare hands. If however, he was wearing his gloves when he threw the corncob, she ran out to the general area but could not differentiate which corncob and returned without it. He was so surprised by this that he repeated it all, first wearing gloves then without with exactly the same results.

Clearly Lusi was using scent detection to differentiate the handled corncob from the rest of the corncobs lying in the field! She is also getting the idea of a retrieve- and can apparently "hold" .......at least "hold" a corncob!

This gives me hope that we can continue to work towards a dumbell and an obedience retrieve!

Edited by Lisabet Measures (01/26/2012 07:11 AM)
Edit reason: typo

Hey Lisabet,

Yeah, dogs are so cool aren't they. With Bodeus, I could throw a stick in to a pile of sticks and he would always bring back the one I threw. I guess it seems intuitive to them. He was pretty easy to teach the UD scent discrimination too.

Yes Louise, dogs are definitely "cool"! It is amazing to watch their instinctive behaviour and to see how naturally they can do certain things!

What surprised me with the corncobs was that this was the first time Lusi had done a retrieve over any kind of distance, (about twenty meters). It definitely seems as though she was transferring her early tracking training skills to the new game of corncob retrieve. It seems that learning one skill set, scent discrimination, was helping in the development of a new skill set, the retrieve.

My husband has just returned from another corncob adventure and reports that if he holds the corncob even with gloves on, as long as he handles it for about a minute prior to the throw, Lusi can now pick up the scent on it and make the retrieve!