He claims that there is scientific research that they cause all kinds of issues ranging from prolonged e coli exposure to pancreatitis. He wrapped it up by telling me I need to get my dog off of it as soon as possible. I agree with him that it is very dangerous and possibly even deadly... if you don't do it right. Safe handling and a balanced diet (such as prey model or paying attention to organ/meat/bone ratios) is extremely important, isn't it?

He said it was a fad diet a few years ago but many people have moved away from it because of the side affects. I couldn't help but think about Ed and so many other dog breeders/active pet owners out there that I know of that have been feeding raw diets for years and have never had an issue. All of them stress the importance of knowing how to do it.

How do I go about finding another vet? Do I just call around and ask if they're raw diet friendly? I love the vet we're at, but I don't feel like discussing this with him, trying to change his mind, or going without the full disclosure and support I need from a medical professional.

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/

you might try finding a "holistic" vet--many of them are more open to raw feeding (as well as things like vaccine protocols.)

I did the same thing you're doing about 7 years ago. Left a vet we had been using for the previous 20 years because I didn't want to have to fight with him about raw feeding. I found a new vet who enthusiastically supports raw feeding and I really love her.

I don't think there's anything wrong with simply calling a prospective new vet's office and asking if you can make a 5-minute phone appointment to speak with the vet. Tell them you're looking to select a new vet practice and have a few questions you'd like to ask before you make a decision. If they won't agree to that, I wouldn't want to go there anyway.

Then when you speak to a new vet say: I feed my dog a homemade raw diet that I've thoroughly researched and the dog does very well on it. I'm looking to start a relationship with a new vet practice, but I want to make sure that my choice to feed raw is something that you will be able to support.

 Quote: SamanthaTopper

He said it was a fad diet a few years ago but many people have moved away from it because of the side affects. I couldn't help but think about Ed and so many other dog breeders/active pet owners

I am pretty involved in the local raw feeding community. Around here, it is growing in popularity and I am continually impressed by the newbies, who are determined to do it right.

"He claims that there is scientific research that they cause all kinds of issues ... "


I'd like to see it.

(Yes, there are risks to every feeding choice, but like the O.P., I'd like to assess them using something more substantial than "claims of scientific research.")



I suspect this vet, when he says "pancreatitis," refers to acute pancreatitis.

Anyone have the experience of owning or knowing any dogs who have experienced acute pancreatitis? Were any of the dogs on a raw diet?

I do, and no.

I totally understand that this is strictly anecdotal, but I would offer as support the common vet term of "holiday pancreatitis" for the upswing in cases around the feast holidays, when pets are suddenly experiencing gravy, stuffing, turkey, roast beef, etc., often in large amounts --- all loaded with cooked fat. The "dietary indiscretion" that the vet manuals refer to, if you ask any owner of a dog who survived acute pancreatitis, seem to center around a sudden load of fatty cooked foods.

Cooked (and/or rancid) fat and "holiday pancreatitis" = long-time partners.



PS

I really hope that no one walks away from scare tactics without first asking for substantiation from a source other than Hills and then, if no meeting of the minds is possible, making it clear why they and their wallets are going elsewhere.

All JMO!

Yes. Ask him for the research.

Here are a few articles on bacterial contamination and other raw diet concerns I found. This took a few minutes on Google scholar. Typed in 'raw food dog'. Full texts are availabe for all and I have attached links along with copying the abstracts or title of the research. I didn't have much time to read the entire articles but there is apparently some research out there to support the vet's claims. Now, who funded the research and whether the research was on the same types of diets Leerburg or members feed their dogs- I don't have time right now to evaluate.

This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination. Full text at - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC339295/

Twenty-five commercial raw diets for dogs and cats were evaluated bacteriologically. Coliforms were present in all diets, ranging from 3.5 × 103 to 9.4 × 106 CFU/g (mean 8.9 × 105; standard deviation 1.9 × 106). Escherichia coli was identified in 15/25 (64%) diets; however, E. coli O157 was not detected. Salmonella spp. were detected in 5/25 (20%) diets; 1 each of beef-, lamb-, quail-, chicken-, and ostrich-based diets. Sporeforming bacteria were identified from 4/25 (16%) samples on direct culture and 25/25 (100%) samples using enrichment culture. Clostridium perfringens was identified in 5/25 (20%) samples. A toxigenic strain of C. difficile was isolated from one turkey based food. Staphylococcus aureus was isolated from 1/25 (4%) diets. Campylobacter spp. were not isolated from any of the diets.
Full text at- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1140397/

Raw and rendered animal by-products as ingredients in dog diets. Full text at- http://jas.fass.org/content/75/9/2497

Bacterial contamination is common in commercially available raw meat diets, suggesting that there is a risk of foodborne illness in dogs fed these diets as well possible risk for humans associated with the dogs or their environments. Full text at- http://jas.fass.org/content/75/9/2497

Of course there is bacteria in a raw meat diet. Nobody needs a study to tell them that. It's raw meat!

But the presence of bacteria in the meat does not make it unsafe for a healthy dog to eat. Their digestive tract is designed to deal with it, like any animal that eats other animals.

I'm also not surprised that they found bacteria in poop. Duh.

Ordinary kitchen hygene will protect the owners, most of which already handle raw meat regularly when they cook it for their own consumption. Soap and water. It's chicken juice, not toxic waste.

Those studies need no further evaluation. We know there is bacteria on raw meat and dog crap.

Where are these studies that show raw fed dogs having a problem with said bacteria from a properly balanced raw diet?

The vet in question said there was scientific research. I want to see it.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

Here are a few articles on bacterial contamination and other raw diet concerns I found. This took a few minutes on Google scholar. Typed in 'raw food dog'. Full texts are availabe for all and I have attached links along with copying the abstracts or title of the research. I didn't have much time to read the entire articles but there is apparently some research out there to support the vet's claims.

Those articles tell us things no one here could possibly dispute: there are food-borne pathogens in a lot of raw meat, and in poop.


We humans should keep dog poop and raw-meat-contaminated foods out of our mouths, IMO.

Dogs, OTOH, have GI systems that are nothing at all like our own.

I don't claim that there are no pathogens in a raw diet (or, in fact, in a lot of recalled kibble). No one does.

I do claim that, as scavengers and raw-meat-eaters, dogs are designed to scoot them through (after a dip in their extremely caustic stomach acid) with very little opportunity to colonize and cause illness ---- unlike us, with our loooooooong GI systems that allow pathogens all the time and opportunity in the world to settle down and raise families.


And again, there a risks involved in every feeding choice. After a ton of research, I view the risks of careful raw feeding to be far less than the risks of the other choices. JMO!

 Quote: Tracy Collins

Of course there is bacteria in a raw meat diet. Nobody needs a study to tell them that. It's raw meat! .... I'm also not surprised that they found bacteria in poop. Duh. ....

 Quote: Michael_Wise

Those studies need no further evaluation. We know there is bacteria on raw meat and dog crap. .... Where are these studies that show raw fed dogs having a problem with said bacteria from a properly balanced raw diet? .... The vet in question said there was scientific research. I want to see it.

Much more succinct than my post, which I was interrupted in the middle of and didn't realize was completely redundant before I hit "post."