Could Donn or Lou please explain how you would run a dog through the learning process using low level stimulus. If you need a specific exercise how about on the "out".

PLEASE, I don't want another argument to start on low VS high level stim. :rolleyes:

Thank you,

Lisa asked: Could Donn or Lou please explain how you would run a dog through the learning process using low level stimulus. If you need a specific exercise how about on the "out".

***** Instead of the “out” command I’ll describe a “here.” The “out” takes a few more steps and is more difficult to explain. WARNING!!! This is usually about a 45-minute phone call with someone who understands the Ecollar. If you don’t or worse, you think you do but you don’t, and you try this, you may screw things up pretty badly. However, someone who DOES understand the Ecollar does can fix whatever damage you do.

Right now I’m using a Dogtra collar with continuously variable stim levels. I first find the dog’s level by putting the collar on him and slowly turning up the power knob. At the first sign that the dog is feeling the stim I stop. That’s his working level and will be until he tells me differently.

The signs that a dog has felt the stim include scratching as if bitten by a flea, an ear flick, moving away from where the collar is positioned on his neck, a furrowing of the brow or by some, usually very slight, change in the way he carries his head.

I’ll put the dog on a Flexi leash. I’ll start with the stim level turned all the way down, an off position, and as he moves away from the handler I’ll slowly turn the stim level up, not going above his working level. At some point he’ll hit the end of the Flexi and that will turn him back towards the handler. As he moves back towards the handler I’ll turn the stim level down, until he’s within a few feet of the handler, then I’ll turn it off. Repeat as necessary.

At some point I’ll introduce the command “here” into this. This is continued until the dog learns that being near the handler is comfortable and that moving away from the handler brings discomfort.

Then I use toys to dial the distraction level up and down until the dog is maintaining the “here” position in the face of those distractions. The dog is then proofed against higher and higher levels of distractions until the “here” is bombproof.

There are all sorts of other behaviors (besides returning to the handler) that a dog can offer during this training and I’d not recommend trying this, the most basic of Ecollar training, without the help of someone who does understand modern uses of the Ecollar.

Doing JUST this will create a dog that's out of balance. If you overdo this you'll get a Velcro dog, one that's clings to your leg and won't go out. You need to temper this training with distance work otherwise you create a "safe" spot for the dog and he'll go there anytime he's unsure of what the correct behavior is.

Lisa,

Perhaps the following will help in your understanding. It is an addenda to be posted on my web site after my video hits the market (after this weekend, I hope).

High-level stimulation can be defined as that level that is either on the edge or over the edge of the dog’s comfort level manifesting in overt physical and or vocal reaction by the dog. It is true that this can and does occur during most initial training sessions, and there are times when you must make a point to the dog. However, this should be infrequent and have a specific purpose. Significant lowering of the stimulation level should also immediately follow it. It is when the level is consistently on or over the edge of comfort that problems such as anxiety, confusion, and anticipation are created. It is then that you start to erode the dog’s ability and motivation to achieve drive success.

ESCAPE TRAINING VS GUIDANCE SYSTEM

The Guidance System is very much like the escape training technique. The two major differences is that in the Guidance System, there is no safe place created, and the stimulation is applied to guide the dog into an area where he can discover drive satisfaction. In escape training, a safe place is created and the dog discovers that when he is in that place, there is no stimulation. Conversely, if the dog moves from the safe place, the stimulation starts and continues. When the dog moves back into the safe place, the stimulation ceases. The dog quickly learns that in order to escape the stimulation, he must move to and maintain the directed position. For example, the handler issues the sit command. Immediately after the command the handler stimulates the dog and continues the stimulation until the dog’s butt hits the ground. The stimulation is then turned off. Through repetition, the dog learns that the faster he sits, the faster he shuts off and therefore escapes the stimulation. Ultimately, the dog discovers that if he sits fast enough, he beats the stimulation and escapes it altogether. In this exercise, the safe spot is butt on the ground. Through repetition, the handler physically adjusts the dog’s body position so that it is correct, such as sitting correctly at heel, and it is that position that shuts off the stimulation.

This concept is applied throughout training. When the dog is commanded to heel, the dog learns the safe place is when his right shoulder is aligned with the handler’s left leg. Again, stimulation is applied until the dog reaches the desired safe spot, and it is there that he achieves escape. The same is true for the down, recall, and send away. In any case, stimulation is applied immediately after the command and continues until the dog is in the proper body position. The dog discovers through repetition that the faster he completes the exercise, the sooner the stimulation stops. Ultimately, the dog discovers that if he is real fast, he will escape the stimulation altogether.

In the Guidance System, I initially employ a form of escape training, but avoid creating the safe spot. Low levels of stimulation are applied, and the dog is guided by leash into the proper position. Once the dog indicates he understands the directive, I then use it to guide the dog into an area where he can discover drive satisfaction. This is very early in the dog’s training. There should never be a safe spot for police or SAR dogs. Our initial goal is to establish a cooperative relationship with the dog in which he follows directions rather than an adversarial relationship wherein he obeys commands. There is a huge difference in the overall working ability of dogs trained in these two systems.

Regards

Donn Yarnall http://www.donnyarnall.com

One more thing. Lou, are you saying you use a Flexi leash?...Lou, a Flexi?.. That's like a cop using an umbrella. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Regards

Donn Yarnall

Lou,
How many people do you think are coordinated enough in the beginning to apply this system? I tried it when I first read your article on Dr. P's site. Couldn't pull it off. How would you do the same thing with a TT Pro 100? Maybe I'm ready to try this method again.

Donn,
I wasn't clear on how you use the stim in the guidance system. Are you using it the entire time you're guiding dog into position? How would this system apply to Lou's example? In the "sit" example, at what point do you turn off stimulation? And do you ever use it to speed up response? Why is lowering the stim as dog responds better than just turning it off? Also, do you always use continuous, or is there a specific purpose and use for momentary? I know they say not to ask too many questions at a time, but these seem to be related and are really important to me. Thanks both of you!

Donn,
If you wouldn't mind clearing a couple of things up for me regarding escape Vs. guidance, I'd sure appreciate it.

Either way initally the dog is learning that the desired behavior ends stim correct?

What specifically do you do in order to help the dog acheive drive satisfaction through his behavior (say sit for example)?

At what point (if at all)do you cease using the collar to reinforce the desired behavior - and if so what replaces it?
Thanks in advance,
Nick

Donn & Lou,
How do you "not" create a "safe place"? When the guidance (teaching) phase is over, and you are using the collar for reinforcement, how does this rule apply? IOW how do you continue to use the guidance system, vs the avoidance system? Maybe these questions are pre-mature, since your video isn't out yet, but I'm sure interested in knowing. I may not be understanding what you are saying correctly; so if that's the case, please set me straight. Really appreciate your sharing of knowledge!

Donn wrote: One more thing. Lou, are you saying you use a Flexi leash?...Lou, a Flexi?.. That's like a cop using an umbrella.

***** A Flexi is a great too for teaching the “here” command. Come on over and I’ll teach you how to use one. ROFL. And….don’t make me start telling these people stories on you. I’ve got a book full and I’m not afraid to use it.

About the second time Donn watches me using the Flexi he’ll be using one.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

sharon g wrote: How many people do you think are coordinated enough in the beginning to apply this system? I tried it when I first read your article on Dr. P's site. Couldn't pull it off.

***** I think it’s very difficult to read something and then go apply it. How many people have read Koehler’s books and then gone and done it completely wrong, giving him a bad name? HOWEVER, once you see this stuff and understand the concepts, it’s a snap. At my seminars I put the TX unit into the hands of pet owners after I’ve worked their dog for about ten minutes and they’ve heard the talk. I use a small CB radio so they can tell when I’m stimming the dog. They watch me for those ten minutes and then they get the radio and the TX unit. I can tell instantly if they’re pressing the button at the wrong time. I haven't found anyone who's not coordinated enough to do it.

***** The Dogtra collar that I’m using DOES take a bit more coordination than the TriTronics unit. It’s much easier to just push a button than to turn a dial and read the dog. The Dogtra unit, can of course, in the hands of a rookie or the unskilled can just be set on one level and kept there. The training goes a bit slower but it’s still REAL fast.

sharon g wrote: How would you do the same thing with a TT Pro 100? Maybe I'm ready to try this method again.

***** It takes a bit longer but the basic technique is the same with a collar that doesn’t have a continuously variable stimulation or someone who just doesn't have the coordination to use the variable stimulation. Instead of turning the stimulation level up and down and guiding the dog with it, you just use the button as pressure on (button on) pressure off (button off). It’s not quite as clear to the dog but training still occurs.

Hi Lou,
You mean changing the pressure, rather than just turning it on & off is "guiding" the dog? This is really interesting! It's like playing "hot & cold". Is this what Donn means by guidance system? On the Pro model, could you use both buttons, then medium, then low, then off? That was hard to do when I first started with the e-collar. Would love to try the Dogtra. How long have you been using this method? It sure isn't anything like momentary. Do you still have occassion to use momentary? Thanks for the time you took. I know it's not the same as being in person, but you do a good job of explaining things.

BTW Lou, Koehler stuff was another story. If you had your coordination & timing perfect, this was a great method. As a young girl I used it with much success. However later in years, these qualities went to h___. One time I hit a dog in the eye with a throw chain. Never tried that again! But I think I can still learn to push buttons.