Having watched a few different clubs training in protection, I have some questions regarding the use of e-collars in this training. Do many trainers use the e-collar to send the dog to the decoy? For PP and PSD training, is it better for the dog to be motivated by the actions of the decoy, or by the command of the handler? I would think there might be times when a service dog is working the streets, when the handler may not be in a position to know exactly what is going on with a suspect, and may have to rely on the dog's good training and judgment to handle a situation. So is it beneficial for the dog to rely strictly on the handler's direction? What should be the primary motivation for the dog in his training? I've heard the philosophy that comes from strict obedience, where the handler wants to acquire power over the dog through the use of the e-collar. I know this philosophy has its place, but is this philosophy beneficial in "protection/police" training in the deployment of a dog? Is the goal to have the dog unaffected by the behavior of the decoy, and only affected by the direction of his handler? Or is the goal for the dog to behave according to the actions of the decoy? I understand the use of the e-collar for a call-off, but am confused about its use for sending the dog toward the decoy.

never heard of using a correction to send the dog. seems to me that if you need to correct your dog in order for him/her to bite, you have some drive issues. my dog is eager to work all the time, its hard enough to get him not to bite. but thats a good question

Driving a dog to the sleeze with any kind of compulsion is a great way to ruin a good dog.

The idea behind protection work is getting the control over your dog so he DOESNT go bite the helper, that is the hard part. The dog should be so hyped up to "get the bad guy" that you have to put obedience on the dog to contain that drive. Not the other way around, that is just arse backwards.

There is a trainer that feels it is good to stimulate the dog all the way to the sleeve but it generally will not produce the results you want to see. You will see dogs that do not want to leave their handlers side and dogs that take weak or shallow bites once they reach the decoy.

E-collars have their place in protection training but in my humble opinion it would not be to drive the dog to the decoy. Counterproductive in my book.

Sharon

Any one who uses the E- collar to "aquire power over the dog." Needs it used on them. I deffinatly dont know all there is about the E- collar. But I have used them for over ten years and been to three seminars put on by tri-tronics. Of this I am sure. To use an electrical charge to get a dog to do something, as apposed to stop doing something, is totaly counter productive.
It should also be noted that you do not use the collar to teach. Or at least that is not what it was ment to be used for.You teach a command first. Then when you are sure the dog knows what you want, you use the collar to proof, to get faster responses and to stop the dog from doing a unwanted response.
Tri-Tronics has a large book on the proper use of te collar.

Ron

Ron, I think your statement about not being able to use the collar to teach a desireable behavior is completely old school and incorrect.

The collar can be used to teach new desirable behaviors by giving the dog very light stimulation and direction as to what you want the dog to do.

i.e. Tell the dog "sitz", just as you give the command give very light continous stimulation. Give the dog guidance by giving an upward steady pull on the leash. As soon as the dog's butt hits the ground, the stimulation is stopped immeadiatly. The dog just learned how to sit and turn off the stimulation at the same time.

It's very effective.

Joe
I do exactly that. (as you stated on the sitz) I just spend a day or two first showing the sitz. I just feal that no mater how low the stimulation. It, the stimulation is going to be another distractionfor him to deal with.But what ever works. My back ground is in hunting, and I,ve seen so many people just sit and burn dogs untill they comply. Your right it is old school but Ive seen so many misuse then(e-collars) Ive seen some "PROS" hook up a trials dog to a 12 volt car battery with alagator clips.To break there will.
If done as you suggest, "using a knowlegable person with them thats fine , But as you say to just buy it and start using it.There going to have problems. Usualy when I "hit" my dogs with the collar the only way you can tell is by the blink f there eyes. They love the collar. Becouse when it go's on thy know thier going out to work, and thats all they live for.

Ron

Ron, as far as the level with my dog, he barely gives a little head shake. No vocalization, just a little flopping of the ears. (sometimes, depends on if he's in drive or not)

Sharon,
I don't use the e-collar at all. I guess I'm just old fashion.
I can't imagine anyone using an e-collar to motivate the dog to work. The e-collar is used, by many, with great success, as a correction tool.

Ron,
I have known a few people of the kind you described who used the car battery.
It's always been my desire to introduce them to a strong civil GSD or Rott and let nature take it's course.
I have also seen one learn his lesson. He was taught and certified by a man in Elkhart,Indiana. Several of us cautioned him about abusing the civil dogs and dogs in general, but he had his own ideas that he learned in Indiana.
To make a long story short, he almost died. After six hours in surgery and some hospital time, he retained about half the use of his right arm and carries numerous massive scars.
He's washed himself out as a police dog trainer. He never regained the nerve to face the dogs.

I have seen the e-collar used before sending a dog, and have also used this method myself. When using this method the e-collar is not put on a level to where it is viewed as a correction. How many people have used very quick light pops on the prong to pump a dog up? Well the e-collar was used the same way and I loved the results.