We had Bella(under 5 month old) in for a blood draw, when the tec’s restrained her she really flipped out, it was not from the needle, it was already out, just from the restraint.

The tec told me they usually only see that from dominant dogs.

These pups were raised with kids and young teens, who were "reminded" several times to not let the puppies bite while I was there for the afternoon.

Could early rough handling cause this?

I think for alot of dogs being restrained by people they dont know might be a bit of an issue. Im sure treatment can cause it but probably temperament as well.
Some friends of ours took their puppy to the vet (4 months old) and the vet tech refused to look at him till they had muzzled him. I understand not wanting to get bit but I think that early on if the techs are willing to work with you and take it slow- getting the pup used to that environment, it would set you up for easier vet visits.

How many times has Bella been to the vet under a socialization setting, where she goes in, meets the staff, gets lots of yummy treats, plays some tug, and then leaves?

Did you prepare Bella for restraint or handling by desensitizing her through normal daily handling and restraint, followed by tons of fun?

If all this was a brand new thing to her, it could have been very scary. New smells, new place, new people. Daddy is nervous and letting these strangers into my space, and now they are grabbing me. The vets office can really be terrible for a dog if not prepared for it well in advance.

How much time did the techs spend with her before trying to restrain her? Was she really comfortable with them?

I really wouldn't worry about it being dominance in a 5 month old female. Chances are just about zero. I think you had a frightened dog in flight mode. And most vet techs know next to nothing about animal behavior or temperament. They are trained to give shots and help the vets. Not to say that all techs are like this by any means, but it is not part of their training to understand the subtleties of animal behavior.

Was the dog muzzled? Did anyone get bit? If it was really dominance and defense drive taking over, and the dog could reach a person with her teeth, things would have been nasty.

IMHO, rough handling by a group of kids wouldn't have anything to do with the situation. If the rough handling came from daddy, then yes, it could have contributed. If she already felt threatened by you, and then got placed into a very uncomfortable situation, she would feel very alone and afraid, with no one to protect her.

How is she around this group of kids? Confident? Fearful? Does she exhibit avoidance around them?

You stated she was there for a blood draw. Is this a routine thing or does she have a medical problem? Many medical issues manifest themselves in aggression, and if she was already in pain, her response to the restraint could have been exacerbated by pain response.

P.S. The dog in my signature pic has a collection of vet bites because all that had ever happened to her at the vet was bad, scary stuff, and she was trying to defend herself. Please avoid this situation if at all possible and socialize Bella at the vet.

Edited by David Winners (04/05/2012 01:33 PM)
Edit reason: Added question about health.

Have you conditioned these puppies to being restrained?

I assume these are the mastiff puppies, so it would be wise to do so for future vet visits.

Your pups reaction was very normal for a puppy who has no idea that being restrained is not a bad thing. Now that she has had the bad experience, it will most likely be worse next time without some desensitization work.

If it were me, I would work on conditioning the dogs that being restrained is not a bad thing, they are safe when being restrained and that it is not negotiable. Then I would make a few visit to the vets and work on building their confidence back up in that area.

It might be a little extra work, but so worth it in the end.

 Quote: Niomi Smith

If it were me, I would work on conditioning the dogs that being restrained is not a bad thing, they are safe when being restrained and that it is not negotiable.

I agree. For me, this is one of those "early and often" exercises with puppies...like fooling with feet, ears and mouth. The technique I use is to hold a puppy in my arms baby-style, holding them quite firmly (or restraining them while they are lying on their side) and waiting until they completely relax and submit to it. Then give a release word and release them. Never release a puppy that is struggling.

It's one more of those instances where we are teaching dogs that it is their own SELF-control that earns them what they want. If you want to be released, first submit. IMO, everything we teach dogs is really about teaching them self-control (and trust.)

Obviously this is easiest to do with a tiny puppy, when you are physically able to easily restrain them, even when squirming.

 Quote: Mary Velazquez

I think for alot of dogs being restrained by people they dont know might be a bit of an issue.

My big girls have been ok, despite bad experiences as puppies at old vet, Egor didn't like the needle, but was pretty mello, Pisa is on the muzzle list.

 Quote: David Winners

#1-How many times has Bella been to the vet under a socialization setting, where she goes in, meets the staff, gets lots of yummy treats, plays some tug, and then leaves?

#2-Did you prepare Bella for restraint or handling by desensitizing her through normal daily handling and restraint, followed by tons of fun?


#3-How much time did the techs spend with her before trying to restrain her? Was she really comfortable with them?

#4-I really wouldn't worry about it being dominance in a 5 month old female. Chances are just about zero........


#5-Was the dog muzzled? Did anyone get bit?
#6- If the rough handling came from daddy, then yes, it could have contributed.......
#7-How is she around this group of kids? Confident? Fearful? Does she exhibit avoidance around them?

#8-You stated she was there for a blood draw.
#9-P.S. The dog in my signature pic has a collection of vet bites because all that had ever happened to her at the vet was bad, scary stuff, and she was trying to defend herself. Please avoid this situation if at all possible and socialize Bella at the vet.

#1 this was her 4th visit, first time restrained

#2 I have held her till she mellows, but after a second she calms down, I have not tryed past that

#3 she had finished with the vet, and a second tec came in to hold for the draw,

#4 that's where I was leaning to, but haven;t seen such a reaction

#5 no and no

#6 I have held her still for being too mouthy, but she mellows in a second and we don't play rough, lots of treats and pets (and kisses)

#7 she was fine,

#8 just for genetic testing

#9 I have had a couple extra exams for nothing,(not since) and with both vets at the practice, and most of the techs always get in some pets each visit.

 Quote: Niomi Smith

#1 Have you conditioned these puppies to being restrained?

#2 I assume these are the mastiff puppies, so it would be wise to do so for future vet visits.

#3 Your pups reaction was very normal for a puppy who has no idea that being restrained is not a bad thing. Now that she has had the bad experience, it will most likely be worse next time without some desensitization work.

If it were me, I would work on conditioning the dogs that being restrained is not a bad thing, they are safe when being restrained and that it is not negotiable. Then I would make a few visit to the vets and work on building their confidence back up in that area.

It might be a little extra work, but so worth it in the end.

#1 for being restrained...no

#2 yes, one of the mastiffs, and I totally agree

#3 I will be working on this,

 Quote: Tracy Collins

#1...like fooling with feet, ears and mouth.

#2 The technique I use is to hold a puppy in my arms baby-style, holding them quite firmly (or restraining them while they are lying on their side) and waiting until they completely relax and submit to it. Then give a release word and release them. Never release a puppy that is struggling.

#1 I have always been very active with those

#2 like I said above I have held her and it only takes about a second and she totally mellows and I always let her go, never thought about marking for it, I will start to do that

now at the vet she did submit, but was held past that point and that's when she started to get worked up over it.

I have never thought of pushing the issue of holding them past when they submit, I've always thought as soon as they do submit let them go.

So to work her up to the point of being restrained comfortably, past when she first submits, is that not going to cause a trust issue???

I'm not quite sure how to go past when she first submits, it was being held past that point that really got her worked up

I would really appreciate knowing how to do this properly passed the point of submission

Don't try to force it too much. Try continuing to hold her as she mellows, just relax as she does, but try extending the time she's in that position. Once she'll willingly take whatever position that is, start having someone she knows and trusts slowly and calmly examine her.

There's no guarantee it will carry over to the vet though.

 Quote: steve strom

Don't try to force it too much. Try continuing to hold her as she mellows, just relax as she does, but try extending the time she's in that position. Once she'll willingly take whatever position that is, start having someone she knows and trusts slowly and calmly examine her.

There's no guarantee it will carry over to the vet though.

I completely agree; but I always hold my own dog at the vet to make sure that I can convey to the dog that I am in control of the situation so there is no reason not to trust.

I will practice with puppies, holding them on their side, making sure to breathe calmly until they calm down, then I mark, reward. As I condition them to this exercise, I will start holding them down while sitting on the floor, then I turn on a show/movie and sit there with them in this position for up to 2 hours. I will massage, groom and then just have them wait on their side during that amount of time.

When we go to the vets, if they need anything done in the form of blood draws etc. I put them on the table, I turn them over and I hold them down. I have a female who HATES the vet, but will lay quietly on her side while I hold her and lets them do what needs to be done - no issues.

I think 5 mos is a tough age -- not a puppy who will give up easily, but lacking the stability and confidence of an adult. As they get a little older they seem to learn that people sometimes do painful things, but it's not life and death, it sucks but it can be tolerated.
My reactive dog was his most reactive at that age.

Logan was about 1 yr when I got him, he wasn't socialized with humans, taken anywhere, nothing. He has never had a brush touch his fur, a hand pet him hardly...no exaggeration.

But you know what, he turned around with a little work. His temperament is great, his lack of handling was the problem. So I agree with the others, its not temperament I don't think...she just needs to learn to accept restraint with positive reinforcement.

Used to I couldn't trim his nails (some dogs are just sensitive BTW) or brush him, he actually howled not out of fear though, out of sensitivity/tickelish. So we had to take it one small increment at a time. Now he jumps up on the table (still hates it) but lets me do it, sometimes I have to do one nail at a time. I can be holding his leg and touch the nail with the trimmer and he starts his ooOOooooo (I can't take it omg!). So I hold it and just mark it, treat. Try again.

At the vet, Logan gets blood drawn from his rear leg in a stand stay, doesn't even notice. Go figure.