Brent McGarva wrote 04/24/2012 08:13 PM Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall #359394 - 04/24/2012 08:13 PM
Brent McGarva Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2010 Posts: 124 Loc: New Zealand Offline	Hello I have been concentrating on my down stay in preparation for my BH in aprox 5 weeks. I have created a problem that when I call my dog from the down to come into the present he won't come. Just interested in people that have had this problem and how they corrected it and made the recall to present discipline reliable. The problem seams to be round the 25 to 35 step range. I was thinking of putting him on long line give him the come command any hesitation give him a gentle pop ,have a good food reward ready and build that confidence. Good or bad idea.
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Joe Waddington wrote 04/24/2012 10:03 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359406 - 04/24/2012 10:03 PM
Joe Waddington Webboard User Reg: 09-02-2009 Posts: 581 Loc: Ca Offline	You can use a line and reinforce the recall but you could make the dog reliant on the the leash to come and the dog check out, you need to be interesting and control the dog with voice & engagement. I was wondering a few things like is this happening in zero distraction areas or new areas with new distractions? If it's not 100% under zero distractions maybe you moved to far to fast. Is he engaged and focused on you or more interested in other things? Hows the recall at 15 or 20 steps is it 100% every time in any area under any distraction? Is the problem only in the down will he come at 40 paces from a sit or stand? Is your recall upbeat and happy and good things come when he does come, HV treat or favorite toy enthusiastic praise.
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Brent McGarva wrote 04/24/2012 10:33 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Joe Waddington ] #359408 - 04/24/2012 10:33 PM
Brent McGarva Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2010 Posts: 124 Loc: New Zealand Offline	Quote: Joe Waddington You can use a line and reinforce the recall but you could make the dog reliant on the the leash to come and the dog check out, you need to be interesting and control the dog with voice & engagement. I was wondering a few things like is this happening in zero distraction areas or new areas with new distractions? If it's not 100% under zero distractions maybe you moved to far to fast. Is he engaged and focused on you or more interested in other things? Hows the recall at 15 or 20 steps is it 100% every time in any area under any distraction? Is the problem only in the down will he come at 40 paces from a sit or stand? Is your recall upbeat and happy and good things come when he does come, HV treat or favorite toy enthusiastic praise. At 10 steps I would say 100% good. Has happened from sit as well as down. No problem with engagement. Distractions not a problem . I am certainly upbeat and food rewards are high.
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Brent McGarva wrote 04/24/2012 10:51 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359409 - 04/24/2012 10:51 PM
Brent McGarva Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2010 Posts: 124 Loc: New Zealand Offline	When I was traing the down stay over a period of maybe 3 months I gradually increased the level of distraction from doing star jumps,to rolling on the ground to someone draging a sack of cans,to people walking around dog in a circle . No broken stays which earned a big food reward. So I think to much training on down stay. Maybe I have moved recall distance to far to quick. I am certainly a food based trainer.
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Joe Waddington wrote 04/24/2012 11:18 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359410 - 04/24/2012 11:18 PM
Joe Waddington Webboard User Reg: 09-02-2009 Posts: 581 Loc: Ca Offline	You might have progressed to far to soon back up a little and take smaller steps and set your dog up for success recall from a distance you know he will come from. You need to thoroughly proof at every stage before you move on, be sure you can recall at 10 steps before you move to 11 steps. Don't add distraction and distance at the same time I use distance first and once you have enthusiastic recall from distance then add distraction. Don't repeat the recall if he doesn't come go get him, don't be angry you don't want the recall word and bad things happening associated, you don't want the dog to learn the recall is optional or that you didn't mean it the first time. Have you tried restrained recalls? Sorry if this was basic info.
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Bob Scott wrote 04/24/2012 11:19 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359411 - 04/24/2012 11:19 PM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	Sounds like the dog is just confused. How did you proof the down? force/compulsion? Do you do a recall each and every time you put the dog on a down? What do you do now when the dog refuses to come? Do the down and release often. Do the recall 10 times and release for every time you do a recall. BOTH need to be rock solid before they are put together. Vary the distance no matter if you call the dog or just release it. Vary the time in the down no matter if you call or just release. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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Joe Waddington wrote 04/24/2012 11:48 PM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359412 - 04/24/2012 11:48 PM
Joe Waddington Webboard User Reg: 09-02-2009 Posts: 581 Loc: Ca Offline	I don't think you can have to much training of the down or anything for that matter more like not enough, I think the down is the ultimate control command. Train in every area under every distraction you can think of and it's only going to help, slowly adding distraction. I would say probably not enough recall training and going to far to fast.
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Joe Waddington wrote 04/25/2012 12:01 AM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359413 - 04/25/2012 12:01 AM
Joe Waddington Webboard User Reg: 09-02-2009 Posts: 581 Loc: Ca Offline	Bob was it you that said something along the lines of, if you think your dog isn't going to come don't call him? I thought it was you correct me if I'm wrong.
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Bob Scott wrote 04/25/2012 12:22 AM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Brent McGarva ] #359417 - 04/25/2012 12:22 AM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	Joe, yes it was me! A dog doesn't "refuse" a command because it's stubborn or trying to punk you, mad at you,etc, etc. It refuses because the command hasn't been taught or proofed correctly. When you call it to you under these circumstances all your teaching it is that it doesn't have to simply because it really is confused about the command. That's a training/proofing issue. In this instance it "sounds like" a distance issue as much as anything. Do the recall from 10ft, 5ft, 12ft, 6ft. RANDOM for training and proofing and never add the down till the recall is solid from any distance. I'll add that yo never add the front and or finish till the recall is solid. Teach each behavior one at a time and I will go so far as to say break each individual behavior down into as many parts as possible. When all that is solid on each behavior then they go together like a two piece puzzle. As you say, "to far, to fast". You never add time and distance at the same moment in training. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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Brent McGarva wrote 04/25/2012 12:52 AM Re: Confusion Created with Down Stay And Recall [Re: Bob Scott ] #359418 - 04/25/2012 12:52 AM
Brent McGarva Webboard User Reg: 01-03-2010 Posts: 124 Loc: New Zealand Offline	Quote: Bob Scott Sounds like the dog is just confused. How did you proof the down? force/compulsion? Do you do a recall each and every time you put the dog on a down? What do you do now when the dog refuses to come? Do the down and release often. Do the recall 10 times and release for every time you do a recall. BOTH need to be rock solid before they are put together. Vary the distance no matter if you call the dog or just release it. Vary the time in the down no matter if you call or just release. I proofed the down by a pull on a leather collar and also a press with my hand between dogs shoulders. When dog dosn't come I calmly walk back break him say no with hold food set him again and shorten the distance. Over the last 2 weeks is when this prob started and I have been doing a recall from down everytime except in play where quick down guick realease. Have any of you people had this issue? My goal is to get the BH ,so I was thinking get a rock solid down stay ,eliminate the chance of being disqualified and look what happens. LOL Thanks to all posters.
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