leash work is the basic step in dog training . the hands on of the leash is a first step towards building the bond .

bill thurmon wrote: leash work is the basic step in dog training

LC: If you don't know what you're doing with the Ecollar and you're not willing to learn something new, I'd agree. But it's an easier tool to learn to use than a leash and a correction collar. It often takes months for someone to learn to deliver a proper leash correction. Learning to push a button takes a few seconds. Learning when to push that button takes a bit longer a day or two.

LC: Bill Koehler, who's training you claim to follow, said towards the end of his life that if modern Ecollars had been around when he got started, that he'd have used one of them, instead of a leash and correction collar. He knew what was going on. Just because a leash and correction collar is the way it's traditionally done doesn't mean that there aren't other, better ways of doing it.

Bill thurmon wrote: . the hands on of the leash is a first step towards building the bond .

LC: There are better ways of building a bond than the "hands on" of a leash. Often dogs don't respond well to that tool. Try reading my article on establishing trust and the alpha roll at

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=147&t=000388#000005

you said:
"Bill Koehler, who's training you claim to follow, said towards the end of his life that if modern Ecollars had been around when he got started, that he'd have used one of them, instead of a leash and correction collar. "

CV:
Are you implying that he would've never used a leash and collar by that statement?

you need a leash and collar (possibly correction collar) in order to pair the stim through guidance. If not, you are most probably going to use excess stim.

Chris Valdes wrote: Are you implying that he would've never used a leash and collar by that statement?

LC: No. Bill said that he'd used the Ecollar in place of the correction collar, meaning the choke or the pinch. It's necessary to use a leash and collar in order to guide the dog into the proper behavior. But he would have used the Ecollar in place of a choke chain or a pinch collar. All that's necessary in 99% of Ecollar training is a plain buckle collar (and a leash of course).

Chris Valdes wrote: you need a leash and collar (possibly correction collar) in order to pair the stim through guidance. If not, you are most probably going to use excess stim.

LC: I'd never use a correction collar with an Ecollar for basic training except for a very rare case and that's where a dog ran into the end of the leash repeatedly, making it difficult to hold onto him. Then I'd use a pinch collar to stop that behavior. But once it had stopped, I'd only use it for guidance, not correction.

Hi Lou,

Ok, I guess where I'm getting at is that do you think by saying you are not using a pinch or a choke to guide the dog with the electric that it is less aversive?

They're all tools and all have the potential to be good or very harmful. The pure beauty about the electric to me is the timing for distance that it can take care of and the option to always enforce your conditioning. Saying that you do all guidance work on a buckle collar tells me you're either popping harder or teaching the dog through negative reinforcement on a higher level then needed with a training collar. you see where it can balance out?

Chris Valdes wrote: Ok, I guess where I'm getting at is that do you think by saying you are not using a pinch or a choke to guide the dog with the electric that it is less aversive?

LC: No not at all. But using a correction collar while beginning training with the Ecollar can cause confusion. If a dog has had bad experiences with a correction collar it can interfere with the Ecollar training.

Chris Valdes wrote: They're all tools and all have the potential to be good or very harmful.

LC: Couldn't agree more. There isn't a tool that can't be misused. There isn't a tool that can't be abused. No tool is idiot proof to the right idiot.

Chris Valdes wrote: The pure beauty about the electric to me is the timing for distance that it can take care of and the option to always enforce your conditioning.

LC: These are huge in dog training. It's the way to get distance control quickly, easily and with little stress to the dog or the handler.

Chris Valdes wrote: Saying that you do all guidance work on a buckle collar tells me you're either popping harder or teaching the dog through negative reinforcement on a higher level then needed with a training collar.

LC: I guess I wasn't clear. I don't pop the leash when I'm doing Ecollar training. It's all guidance, gently moving the dog into the proper behavior or position. This applies whether the dog already knows the behavior or if I'm teaching him a new one. The Ecollar stim level is set to where the dog first feels it.

Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LC: If you don't know what you're doing with the Ecollar and you're not willing to learn something new, I'd agree. But it's an easier tool to learn to use than a leash and a correction collar. It often takes months for someone to learn to deliver a proper leash correction. Learning to push a button takes a few seconds.

okay ! for a weak handler that cannot handle the leash I would say that they need to work on their leash skills not take a short cut . the e-collar is not a replacement for the leash and training collar ! if that weak handler works on the leash skill they are better off .

LC: There are better ways of building a bond than the "hands on" of a leash. Often dogs don't respond well to that tool. Try reading my article on establishing trust and the alpha roll


thanks but no thanks ! I studied the alpha role with darrel hall using it for a better bite and to impress the dog in control work . two different goals and one method . one during the bite and one in the muzzle to impress the dog .

bill thurmon wrote: for a weak handler that cannot handle the leash I would say that they need to work on their leash skills not take a short cut .

LC: bill, why do you think that the Ecollar is a "shortcut?" Actually the Ecollar is a great tool no matter how weak or strong a handler is. That has nothing to do with the use of the tool.

bill thurmon wrote: the e-collar is not a replacement for the leash and training collar !

LC: I don't think that I or anyone else has said that the Ecollar is a replacement for the leash and training collar. But if you know how to use the Ecollar, the training collar, the correction collar is superfluous.

bill thurmon wrote: if that weak handler works on the leash skill they are better off .

LC: Why is the weak handler better off if he works on the leash skill? What is the inherent "goodness" of the leash and correction collar over the Ecollar? As long as the dog works and does so happily, what difference does it make what tool the trainer or handler has used?