So I'm picking up my first schutzhund Bouvier pup this weekend. I was asking the head trainers at my club what their methods were and when we got to the topic of defense and fight drive, she said it was the first time she had heard anyone utter those terms in 20 years.

She went on to say that defense and fight drive are antiquated BS and wholly unnecessary in schutzhund. When I told her I had been reading and watching Frawley's methods, she said that Balabanov's methods are far more effective and humane than Frawley's. She believes in working entirely in prey drive and that defense and fight are the best ways to ruin a dog.

What are your opinions on the subject of defense/fight drive? I know Frawley is a police officer and I'm in a Schutzhund club (not doing police work). Is that the reason for the disagreement? Do any of you work in defense or fight?

 Quote: Nate Foster

So I'm picking up my first schutzhund Bouvier pup this weekend. I was asking the head trainers at my club what their methods were and when we got to the topic of defense and fight drive, she said it was the first time she had heard anyone utter those terms in 20 years.

She went on to say that defense and fight drive are antiquated BS and wholly unnecessary in schutzhund. When I told her I had been reading and watching Frawley's methods, she said that Balabanov's methods are far more effective and humane than Frawley's. She believes in working entirely in prey drive and that defense and fight are the best ways to ruin a dog.

What are your opinions on the subject of defense/fight drive? I know Frawley is a police officer and I'm in a Schutzhund club (not doing police work). Is that the reason for the disagreement? Do any of you work in defense or fight?

First, there is NO dog trainer anywhere who has not heard the terms defense drive or fight drive in twenty years.

There's so much to address here .... it's kinda hard to pick one item. I know others will see the thread and reply, too. I'll start with "...she said that Balabanov's methods are far more effective and humane .... "

The first link will help right away, I hope.

http://leerburg.com/qa/qna.php?id=1236?set=1
(This is a question to Leerburg: I noticed that your Marker DVD is similar to Balabanov's training style. Will they work together if I mix and match different parts ot the training methods? There's a detailed answer.

http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf
(This is about marker, or clicker, training, which has been the backbone of LB DVDs for years.)

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=770
(This is Ed talking with Michael about the newest Advanced Concepts in Motivation DVD.)

http://leerburg.com/podcasts/markertrainingdogs.mp3
(This is Ed's podcast explaining basic marker training.)

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=522

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=17




Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/25/2012 10:51 PM)
Edit reason: eta: added a link

You may not have seen the replies to your post here:

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32259&page=1#361097

Example: "Nate; In the years since Ed began producing these videos, his methods have changed. He now employs marker training, which is operant conditioning using a reward-based system. .... If you are not watching a video that he did with Michael Ellis, that video is probably outdated."

Sorry guys. I forgot I posed this question already. Thanks for your input all the same.

The Ellis/Balabanov methods are great but to say she hadn't heard the terms defense and fight drive in 20 years tells me she's been locked in a closet somewhere.
Most clubs use a combination of all of these methods. Some are heavy on the motivational and some are heavy on the other.
"Done correctly" ALL are important to good schutzhund training today.
All the terms can and have been discussed, dissected, sworn by and denied since dog training began but they are still prominent in bite training.

Bob said:

" ... to say she hadn't heard the terms defense and fight drive in 20 years tells me she's been locked in a closet somewhere."




A succinct way to put it, Bob.

 Quote: Nate Foster

Thanks. That clears up some confusion. So does nobody use defense or fight drive anymore? Not in either schutzhund or police work?

That would be an incorrect assumption. I don't claim to be anybody special, but I am somebody.

DFrost

.

Edited by Mary Velazquez (06/26/2012 10:08 AM)
Edit reason: accidently posted in the wrong place, sorry guys

In our club, we use every drive available. All handlers and helpers are taught to read the dogs in different drives, and how to move the dog from one drive to another. My dog won't go into prey drive on the field, but I train OB and tracking in food drive, and am carefully working towards using her natural defensive and fight drives for protection.

We use a combination of techniques that are common from Ellis to Balabanov to Bellon to Pryor, and on and on and on. Primarilly we teach motivational marker training, but we have one older police dog that requires compulsion and another that won't out unless you cut her air off, but even they have made progress with the motivational training.

Note: If you watch video of any Ellis dog competing in a ring sport, you will clearly see a dog that is transitioning from defense to fight to prey, etc, etc. Even if another trainer/instructor says differently, having a dog guard an item puts him up in defensive drive. Enter the helper and it escalates to fight drive. This is natural to the dog; there is nothing inhumane or non-motivational about it.