A neighbor and I were discussing Falcon's raw diet and she asked if there was any way of checking on the ratios of a raw diet, especially the bone and meat ratios, without a lot of "percents and math". I admit to not knowing; I've been using my best judgement, watching poops, etc... for so long but couldn't honestly answer this question.

Any input from the more experienced raw feeders?

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

A neighbor and I were discussing Falcon's raw diet and she asked if there was any way of checking on the ratios of a raw diet, especially the bone and meat ratios, without a lot of "percents and math". I admit to not knowing; I've been using my best judgement, watching poops, etc... for so long but couldn't honestly answer this question.

Any input from the more experienced raw feeders?

What a good question!

Here is something to have in mind as she devises the raw diet, as a double-check even after she has consulted books and percents and detailed weights:

She should end up with a third to a half of the diet being RMBs.


RMBs, as you know, are NOT recreational bones. RMBs, as Cindy says in the Q&A link below, are raw meaty bones. "Raw meaty bones are soft enough for your dog to chew and eat completely. RMBs are the foundation of the raw diet." (Chicken backs and necks, and chicken quarters or thighs, are all popular RMBs.)

A third to a half may sound a little vague, but here is how you can further define that: If your RMBs are bonier (like back and necks), make them a third of the diet. If they are less bony and more meaty, like chicken quarters or thighs, make them half of the diet. (Or if you alternate between or combine the meatier RMBs with the bonier ones, you can also alternate between a third and a half of the diet as RMBs.)

This balance can certainly be over time, rather than meal by meal, but for someone looking for simplicity and very little figuring, making each meal a third to a half RMBs can streamline the menu planning.

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm

http://leerburg.com/970.htm

http://leerburg.com/9000.htm

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjhomemade2.html

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjhomemade2.html#puppies

Thanks Connie! I'll check out the links and I'm sure have more questions...

I have been trying to figure out the same thing. I recently switched my dog over to honest kitchen embark, now I want to add in a chicken back with it. I just have to figure out how much honest kitchen to give her with that back and we should be all the way on raw from here on out.

It's probably a good thing that your friend doesn't want to get too technical ("percents and math") about this, because figuring out a strict bone-to-meat ratio would be nigh on impossible.

Because the "RMB" part of the diet is both bone and meat...and every piece is going to be different. Even from one chicken back to the next they are different--and the difference between a chicken back and a chicken leg quarter is considerable, even though both are considered Raw Meaty Bones.

Thank goodness creating a diet doesn't require the precision of blending rocket fuel, or even baking a cake. There's a pretty wide margin of error here.

The keys (as Connie has already stated) are:
--balance over time
--understand the basic proportions, and try to stick to them most of the time
--watch poops

With my dogs, I go for a ratio that's about 50-50. Half RMB and half boneless muscle meat. (I'm not including the other stuff like organ meat, veggies, eggs, etc.--all of which are minor in comparison to the 2 big ingredients.)

This works out well for me, because I mostly use bony RMBs---chicken backs and duck necks. I say "bony" because through experience and just by looking at them I can tell there's more bone than meat in the pieces.

For "meaty" RMBs---say, leg quarters---you could reduce the amount of added muscle meat, because there's already a bit more meat on those bones.

As I say, it's necessarily imprecise, and that's okay.

If it helps any, a pretty-close-to-ideal ratio of bone, meat, organs, and veg can be visualized as a "whole prey" diet. That is, if your dog were to eat an entire prey animal as caught--a whole rabbit--including all the meat, bones, hide, and stomach contents--that would be the proper ratios of those foods.

So when you're putting together the food in his bowl, you're creating a kind of "franken-prey" diet, putting together the bones, meat, organs from different sources, but in about the ratios that nature would present them.

Thankfully, nature also provides the perfect test of whether you've done it right: poop. If you've followed the basic guidelines of 30-50% RMBs, and the dog is making quite firm, log-shaped poops, you did it right. If the dog's poop is hard, crumbly, or pellet-shaped, you've fed too much bone in the last meal. Just learn and adjust.

 Quote: Jeffrey Hill

I have been trying to figure out the same thing. I recently switched my dog over to honest kitchen embark, now I want to add in a chicken back with it. I just have to figure out how much honest kitchen to give her with that back and we should be all the way on raw from here on out.

If the add-in is straight boneless meat, then you need to stick to the box directions for the maximum on meat add-ins.

That said, with a chicken back, you are pretty safe, even if you exceed that amount somewhat. If you exceed it more than a little bit FOR PUPPIES, then you want to balance that chicken back with MM, as explained in post number 2 of the thread. Puppies need the calcium (and other minerals) to come into the body in the right ratios because they aren't yet efficient at excreting "extra," and they can't be shorted, either, while growing bones and teeth.

(THK as a base is a little different from all RMBs and meat.)

Good choice, BTW, whether you use it as a bridge to all raw or whether you give THK with RMBs permanently. JMO!

There is an excellent article, in this month's Whole Dog Journal about this very subject; "Raw Diet Pitfalls"
It discusses how too much bone or too much fat can lead to nutritional inadequacies.
You could also make that same argument with the inverse, too little bone or too little fat, as it would have the same deficiencies.

While it isn't a perfect science, it is incrediblly important to make sure that over time that you get as close to knowing you are in the general ball park, as possible.
The problem could be if you think you are doing it all correctly and find out later that you were off in your meal plan.

The article in WDJ was written by Mary Straus, who is the owner of DogAware, who's site is comprehensive with information.(also Connie's links above!)
I highly recommend reading this article, it is well worth the time as it points out many potential pitfalls.

If anyone has questions about their diet plan, don't hesitate to throw out any questions.

I used to have issues when I fed turkey necks,as an example, because some of the Tom necks are quite bone dense, and it always showed up in crumbly stool. These are the things that are easy to see and ought to be corrected in the next meal.

With the HK, Because Embark is one of the foods that can be fed stand alone, you can feed nearly the amount given on the box, and then add in your RMB, you will be just fine with that.

Yes--that WDJ article is great! Love that magazine.

I love WDJ too.


BTW, as long-time raw feeders are well aware, variety is without question the best way to avoid a serious deficiency (that is, AFTER attention to the RMB amount).

That one-dollar can of sardines, the variety in the produce (even though produce is a small part), maybe some yogurt and cooked eggs, maybe a can of green tripe, trying to avoid having the muscle meat the same meat as the RMBs, maybe even adding an occasional "gravy" of THK when it seems that the meals have been all the same for a while ..... Just as with humans, variety is the only way to touch all the nutritional bases.

ETA
Just wanted to make sure not to imply that exotic meats were necessary or even desirable. They are not necessary, and they should be avoided, IMO, because they are what you will need if ever you need an elimination diet (which is based on food the dog has never tasted). An elimination diet of real food that's also readily accessible can be almost impossible if the dog has been given all the meats that are available.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/10/2012 12:24 PM)
Edit reason: ETA

I love rotating the HK in for variety, it's super convenient and adds in great vegetables.

I often run across customers who are leaving out organ meats, which is another important part of the diet, even though it's only 10% it's still an important make up in the diet.