For those of you that didn't know yet, I'm now starting Schutzhund with Marco since I found out that there's a club pretty much right in my back yard. I'm not a stranger to the sport. I've been to 4 or 5 trials and have seen many training sessions. Just never had the opportunity to get involved for one reason or another.

So I've seen many times at training where people use a ball on a string as a reward and many times I've seen them use a second ball to entice the dog back. Plus I've seen people here reference playing two ball. So I thought I had it figured out. So for a few weeks now I've been using two balls on a string with him and he's always eagerly come back when he sees me swinging the other ball. Never had to really train it at all. He'll just automatically drop the one in his mouth when he gets back to me, I throw the other and it starts again. Occasionally he'll drop it well before he gets back to me but not very often. So today he started to, I guess, try to test weather or not he should bring it back. He didn't exactly play keep away, he just kind of stood there with it. I was able to use my recall and he came right back twice. Then the third time he didn't come back right away, so I stopped right there because I didn't want to ruin the recall or give him the idea to play keep away. I know for sure that I didn't play too long because I've done this with him many times for at least twice as long as we did today. So where do I go from here.

Two ball ends. Time to go to one ball and, once you get the return/out solid, start using it as a reward for OB.

I'm not trying to use it as a reward for OB yet. I was just playing with him to see how much ball drive he has. So if I go to just one ball. How do I get the return and out solid. He actually outs pretty well with the ball.

What I'm saying is that it's time to start building tug as a reward. If he is wise to two-ball, the second ball is now a bribe instead of a reward, and you want to stop that before it becomes ingrained.
Backchain from the out with some very short retrieves. Out him; when he gives up the ball, reward immediately with a tug. Mix in some very short retrieves, out and repeat. Once he figures out the game, start adding distance. Once he is pushing the ball back at you for more, you can reward other behaviors with tug. Intensify that drive for the ball.

kory , i don't know all the rules of the whole game of two ball as a means of training an actual retrieve , but if i read your post correctly , and speculate the rest , it sounds to me like you've let him determine the rules of the game .

when he brings the ball back , drops it , you pick it up or chuck the other one without any direction to the dog ( other than get it ) he is calling all the shots of the game .

i've never had to resort to two ball , but i think you are supposed to work towards a point where he has to present the other ball before you throw the next one . then when he starts to reliably present the first ball , you can phase out the second ball .

you need to put some rules on the game to turn the roles around .

does he have an actual retrieve where he puts the object into your hand , or is at least bringing the object right in to you energetically with the expectation that you will be engaging him with the tug ?

if not , you need to get to that place first . bob'll tell you to backchain lol and i agree .

one other point , the ball on a string , while popular for a number of reasons , might not be the best toy at this point . the ball is hard to target , and to keep still for the out . a tug , or my favorite , the ring , is a good compact and stable item that you can control easily . it provides him with a good target to strike . most importantly , it needs to be an article you can both be playing with together . when he realizes playing with you is the best game in town , the retrieve will come , and then the motivation to do behaviours or whatever will be there .

" bob'll tell you to backchain lol and i agree ."


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If you don't know the terms chaining and back-chaining yet, we have many members who can help.

O.K. I see what you're saying Duane. I was doing it that way just to give him the idea that coming back to me means more play, not the end of the game. Sort of like ME teaches with tug. So I'll try what you're saying.

Ian, I wasn't really trying to train a retrieve or anything else. Just playing and trying to see how much ball drive he has, while getting him to understand that bringing the ball back means more play.

Connie, I have gotten the idea of marker training pretty well, but I'm not far enough along to understand more complicated things yet. I'm not sure how to explain but basically when you guys explain the way to do it, I get it. I just have a hard time figuring out how to do it on my own. I tend to expect to get from A to Z without the steps in between.

Kory;

Two-ball did it's job for you, but just like other phases of training, you hit a point where you have to move on. Now he's figured out two-ball ("wise" to it), so you've actually gotten past the point where you would eliminate it. It's okay though; this is one of the easier fixes you will have going forward.

Back-chaining means you take the LAST behavior in a string of behaviors (chase ball, get ball, bring ball, out ball) and develop that first. You then work the chain backwards, adding very slight distances (or durations) slowly.
You said his out is pretty good, so you're well on your way to completing the first part of the chain. Keep polishing that, and slowly add short retrieves, 6ft or less, and progress as in my last post. Each session for a while, start back at the end (out) and practice what you have done so far, THEN work on adding a little more to it.

Got it. By the way, I had been frequently having him sit or down before throwing the ball. Also sometimes I will give my recall command when he's headed towards me and he's been really good about coming directly to me and sitting right in front of me.