This question goes out to all those amazing people who have adopted or fostered dogs who, for whatever reason, are used to and comfortable with peeing in their crate - which obviously makes house-breaking using the crate as a tool a rare bit challenging...

A friend of mine is fostering a lovely 1 y/o female hound who has been in a shelter her whole life. The pup is out of her crate and supervised constantly during waking hours: taken outside at regular - frequent - intervals, given a BIG party when she pees outside... the pup does great. It's nighttime that's the problem. Water is currently being taken away at 8pm, and she gets a last pee of the night, but even in an appropriately small crate for her, she pees in the night and doesn't mind sleeping in it...

Connie suggested taking the water away around 7pm, and when it's time to go to sleep, setting the alarm for every 1.5 hours through the night - so the pup is never really in dire need of peeing. That and a reminder to NEVER punish for accidents...

Should mention my friend is an accomplished dog-owner but this is proving quite tough.

Does anyone else have any other words of wisdom here? This dog seems incredibly sweet and smart, but once they learn it's ok to use the crate as a bathroom, I know it can take ages to "un-learn"...

Many thanks!

Here was my PM reply:

No magic .... she HAS to set the alarm ever hour or 1.5 hours and take the dog out and WAIT until she pees.

Then PARTY! Rewards, praise, etc.

I have done it more than once, so I'm not telling someone else to do something that I'm just guessing about. It's much harder when the dog has been forced to live in pee, and to pee in her bed.

So the whole nine yards: Pick up the water at 7 or so, take her out AND WAIT just before bed, set the alarm often (and then when she goes at midnight or 1 am, of course, the time can then be a bit longer), hustle her out the INSTANT she wakes up ....

The important thing is not to allow the crate-pee to be necessary. (Of course, ignore if there is a handler error and it happens.) Praise and give very high value treats for outdoor night potty.

I told Natalya we had several foster and rescue folks, so a board post would be good.

Natalya,

Is it possible the dog pee's when your friend wakes up, heads toward the crate? How is the dog reacting when she(friend) gets to the door of the crate?

For a dog like this, water is removed between 6-6:30, final out at 12 am, 3 am, again at 6, more if needed. I take them out AS SOON as I get up, no talking, just business. Praise for going outside.

No bedding in the crate.

I go along with Connie.

I might suggest to your friend an evening schedule that might be some thing like dinner at 5:30 pm or so, a drink about an hour later, and it is the last drink of the evening. After dinner, out for a constitutional, and after the drink, out for a constitutional, and then twice or three more at one hour increments. Into the crate about 10 pm for the evening.

In so far as your friend is essentially training a puppy to a schedule, probably several nights of getting up at two hour or so intervals to take the dog out for a constitutional...

Presuming your friend gets up at 6 am, immediately feed the dog, and out for a constitutional regardless if there was an accident in the crate. Then a drink about an hour later, and a constitutional. And then every few hours out side for a constitutional.

The idea is to get the dog to associate you friend with it going outside for its constitutional, I think. Just as it associates your friend with meals.

But it sounds like the dog has to be given a response set. Your friend has to reset the dog's body response. Kinda like the dog salivating when it is time to eat.

Once it associates its constitutional with your friend's command, and for me it is c'mon girls, and you too Titan, and I reach for the door, it will adapt. But I don't think it will be a short fix, necessarily, because the dog has essentially been trained to urinate in the crate. A very gentle, matter of fact, consistent approach to reorienting the dog will pay off, I think.

Time, according to The Rolling Stones, is on your friend's side but it will take time to reset the dog's stimuli or some thing like that.

Then too, the crate needs to be cleaned without attitude toward the dog. It really doesn't know its doing any thing wrong. I use Clorox spray and finish cleaning it with Nature's Miracle in a spray bottle. I have a bunch of old beach towels, so after I clean the crate I toss in a clean towel, and it all starts over again. My objective is to get absolutely rid of a urine smell. Makes me feel good.

Treats, rewards, praise... Obviously. No punishment or correction because it really is pointless.

Time and patience. Consistency and gentle training.

But there are those better at this than I.







Edited by Mike Arnold (12/07/2012 06:35 PM)
Edit reason: Poor typing skills

"The idea is to get the dog to associate you friend with it going outside for its constitutional"

And just as important is to do everything to avoid the dog being inside when she has to go. Every time she is, it's a setback.

This goes more for this dog even than for a baby puppy, because this dog has now been "trained" to go where she sleeps. So she needs a consistent new picture in her mind of potty=outside=rewards/treats.

No matter how much interrupted sleep and crate-cleaning has to happen now, it will pay off big time, and SO MUCH FASTER than if she is sporadic about getting her outside in time, every time.


I would not urge this so vehemently if I didn't have lots of experience with dogs "trained" to go in a garage or a kennel or crate. She CAN do this.

PS

I know you mentioned that she was experienced, but please make sure she knows "no wee-wee pads."

They are counter-productive in a big way, reinforcing indoor potty.

Thanks guys!!

Yes, my friend knows not to go the wee wee pad route. She's had good success with crate training in the past, this is just an unconventional crate training case. I think she's the perfect woman for the job - she's done a fair amount of fostering and rescuing, and her own amazing dog is a rescue turned therapy/assistance dog for her - in NYC! so she's got the patience, compassion, and training chops to make this new pup a success...

*One question - since this dog has essentially been trained that peeing in her crate is A-OK, would it make any sense to take the crate out of the equation? If she's learning throughout the day that peeing is for OUTSIDE, and presumably being stopped if she attempts to pee throughout the house, maybe she'd pick up the house-breaking in it's entirety if she just slept on a dog bed near the human bed and got let out at the same interval schedule recommended (ie, OFTEN)?

I know being accustomed to a crate is pretty important for all kinds of training and life situations, but in this case, what if the crate took a backseat... would she still do you think feel like peeing in a crate was OK, say, a year from now, if she became 100% housebroken OUTside the crate in the next month? (*I ask this having NEVER fostered or had to deal with housebreaking anything but my own "clean slate" of a puppy, 7.5 years ago... apologies if it's a completely ridiculous suggestion...)

Really, really appreciate all the feedback, friends...

~N

I think I'd give it a try to let the dog spend the night in the mud room or some place with an easily cleanable floor overnight instead of the crate.

If the dog it is otherwise reliable, maybe it has been conditioned to either whiz in the crate or outside on cue.

I'm not a fan of a dog in the bedroom, with rugs, etc.

Have your friend give it a shot and see. But I'd still work off of a schedule that limited liquid intake in the evening, and optimized the number of constitutionals.

And I'm really not a fan of a dog in a crate all night once it is reasonably reliable in its constitutional habits. But that's just me.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

I think I'd give it a try to let the dog spend the night in the mud room or some place with an easily cleanable floor overnight instead of the crate.

And I'm really not a fan of a dog in a crate all night once it is reasonably reliable in its constitutional habits. But that's just me.

Thanks Mike. Good call on the cleanable floors - I think I thought bedroom because it would be easier to hear the dog if she was right by the humans... I also happen to know that this foster lives in an open floor plan apartment, with wood floors, so it may not be that difficult to find an appropriate, non-crate corner to try this experiment out in.

And I'm with you on the crate being a tool that can be shelved when it isn't necessary anymore. I know some dogs really love their crates, and they can be great management devices, but we put Oscar's crate away at some point after he was 2. He wasn't using it as often as he was his beds (ohhh, his many beds :grin, and for a large dog, the XL crate was a rather large piece of rather unattractive furniture to not be in use...

*NOT dissing crates though - they are one of the most useful elements for raising a balanced and well-mannered beast!