I have been following M r. Castle's advice on crittering and it doesn't seem to be working,im not knocking Mr. Castle I beleive he is the e-collar guru.I can get my dog to do tons of usefull things like sit come wait kennel off etc,but when on the leash seeing another dog the e-collar doesnt even phase him...please any advice?

To kinda give a better picture with the dogtra 1100 nc in my back yard he compation heels and out in the street he acts like a nut pulling each and every way.Even with the collar down to 30 i can get a response in my back yard but in the streetwith all my neighborhood dogs barking etc. the collar doent touch him turned all the way up.

Paul, I am sure the e collar experts will chime in but I do hope you are working on the issues around other dogs independantly of proofing your obedience.

Also, I think if your dog is allowed to get to the point of needing a high stim you have defeated the purpose. Have you gone slowly using low stim?

I know that my first exposure to using an ecollar for crittering was a high stim after the dog had gone into prey drive and it had no impact but the low stim at the preliminary stalk/stare (for prey) had a profound impact. Well...that is a non experts opinion. I don't think that crittering is the same as dog-dog issues though.

I have found approaching dogs behind fences very useful for some of my training <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Paul,
I am by no means an ecollar expert, but it sounds to me like there is too big of a jump in intensity of the stimulus (other dogs) between your back yard and the street. Also, out on the street is NOT a controlled environment, and Lou's crittering protocol needs to be done in a controlled environment, as I understand it. Rather than going from the the yard to the street, I'd suggest setting up some training scenarios in neutral locations where you can control all of the factors. A large empty parking lot that is roomy enough to have a friend with a nonaggressive dog walking back and forth off in the distance while you work with your dog would be ideal. Remember that the distance between your dog and the other dog is critical. You need to set your dog up to learn by keeping him far enough away from the other dog that he is aware of its presence but is not going ballistic. You need to be able to use the lowest stim possible to get him to look away from the other dog *before* he goes ballistic. As your dog masters the looking away behavior (you will know this because he will automatically look away from other dogs without needing the stim), you can decrease the distance over time.

Here's a link that might help out:

http://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm

Also you might want to find a professional who is familiar with this protocol to help you out. Sometimes we don't know where we're going wrong until seen through a second set of eyes.

I did this with a couple of dogs in a fenced yard while my dog was about 100 ft away.H e did nt have a stare it was a bark growl jump etc.I have to find someone willing to let my dog do the crittering exercise i guess if i could find a vulonteer i would work better.

You can also deal with this issue by creating, maintaining and demanding a focused heel. This can be accomplished with a pinch/prong collar or an ecollar. Instead of correcting for looking at the other dogs and responding to them, i would correct for not looking at you. When the dog learns that he must look at you, it won't matter how many dogs are around him. It worked for me..and my dog was/is a real SOB.

Paul I ain't no guru! LOL I just know a few things and have stolen from some of the best trainers around. Your experience of turning the Ecollar waaay up and having it fail is causing you all sorts of problems with this training. One of the basics of using a Ecollar is teaching the dog that he can turn off the stim by performing the movement that you desire. By using the collar "turned all the way up" and having it not "even phase him" you're teaching him to power through it. He's learned that even if he keeps up the aggression the stim eventually stops, exactly the opposite of what you want.

If your dog goes to a bark, a growl, or a jump you're too close and this protocol won't work. You might also be having a problem because the other dog is behind a fence and sometimes that doesn't work. If you'll recall my protocol talks about not using animals in wire crates and "behind a fence" is much the same. Get someone with a non-reactive dog to help you and use him in the open, not behind a fence. If you find that your dog barks, growls or jumps, back up; you're too close and/or you've approached too fast.

Nancy while using a dog behind a fence has worked for you it can make the work hard because that dog may not be doing the same thing all the time. The protocol calls for the "wrangler" to keep the prey animal moving in a consistent manner. A dog that's behind a fence will walk around, he may sit, he may bark, he may do all sorts of things. As he does those things your dog's distraction level is jumping all over the chart, instead of being gradually increased ONLY by the fact that the distance between the dogs is diminishing. That make it impossible to stay at the dog's working level.

Paul now that you've been to the top of the scale you'll have to spend quite some time starting over because your dog will make an association between the "working level" of stim and what he's been subject to.

You may also have made the problem worse. High level stim should NEVER (one of the few times that I say never) be used for this. Your dog will think that the other dog is causing the pain from a great distance. You can train your dog to stop the display of aggression but not impact his thoughts of being aggressive. He'll stop doing the barking, jumping, lunging and raising his hackles that show you that he's being aggressive. He'll go from calm to murder without any warning.

Lisa it's always gratifying when people not only understand the protocol, they can explain it to others. You've got it right!

Scott what you suggest is one way of handling dog to dog aggression but it only works when the dog is under command. If he's playing or on a command that lets him "be a dog" he'll still show aggression to the other dog. My protocol stop it no matter what the dog is doing.

Using this protocol I've had dogs bumping shoulders with dogs they wanted to kill 25 minutes ago. It allowed me to rescue a confirmed dog fighter, he'd caused serious injuries to other dogs in fights and once he missed killing a dog because he missed the carotid artery by a very small amount. That dog was eventually left at home alone (no supervision) with three others while I went to work. He never played with the other dogs but he tolerated them.

i will try again but i gotta find someone willing to let me do this,my sister said she would do this with her cat..will that work?I started with a low stim and worked my way up and he didnt flinch at any level.i wish you board and trained Lou.

Paul, a cat is not a dog and dogs know the difference. I think you need a dog. A non threatening dog as Lou says.

Lou, i should have clarified -- what I have done with dogs behind fences was not with the e-collar but with a clicker and food and it was simply desensitization and teaching my dog to be calm when other dogs rushed and barked.

I do think it is another nice tool in the toolkit but your protocol for crittering did work wonders for me.....we can now work my dog THROUGH loose farm animals.

Of all the dogs that I've used the protocol on, one of them stopped chasing all animals, from mice to elk after being worked on a cat. Some dogs stopped chasing animals in the same size range as the cat; squirrels, skunks, etc., but continued to chase larger game, deer and smaller, mice. Some dogs have had to be crittered on every single (size range) animal in their environment. So it may work but I sorta doubt it. Since most dog to dog aggression is, I think fear based, it probably won't.

Paul I'd suggest that you read the protocol again and the article on fitting the Ecollar to the dog that includes how to find his working level as well. There's nothing in there that describes turning the stim up until the dog "flinches." In any case, my last post mentioned that because you've been to the top of the stim scale you'll need to "spend quite some time starting over because your dog will make an association between the "working level" of stim and what he's been subject to." This may take a few days or a couple of weeks of you giving NOTHING but low level stims. If you keep going too high I guarantee that my protocol won't work and there's a very good chance that you'll make him more aggressive.

Nancy what you mention, "work(ing) (your) dog through loose farm animals" is an example of how well this works but it has to be done properly. When it's not, it doesn't work. It's fairly subtle and "jolting" and "flinching" are signs that the protocol isn't being followed.