Hi everyone,

Carlin is doing great, for the most part. His training is coming along wonderfully, and he is smart as a whip. I've had him just under 3 months now, and he has learned a TON considering I've been crazy busy (first year of grad school).

If the world were JUST females, he would be fine. However, there are men in the world, and that makes him uneasy.

While I've done a bunch of reading on the web about counter conditioning and what not, does anyone have any resources (books, DVDs, or articles) that you have found particularly helpful? More specifically, I'm looking for things that are application based, as I'm pretty sound on theory of treating this fear.

The good thing about Carlin is that I think he has good nerves, as he is incredibly environmentally sound. When he sees something new, he wants to investigate. The other day we were walking at night, and a big tarp blew off a boat and billowed out in front of us. Instead of freaking out, he cocked his head, and pulled at the leash to investigate. He also has a really high pain tolerance (today I identically clipped his harness onto the skin on his belly, but I didn't know until the walk was over, as he didn't whine or make a peep, and we had a normal walk!)

Is a dog that LEARNED fear (legitimately via abuse) able to UNLEARN that abuse, compared to a dog that has fear for no (apparent) reason? So far, the only men he likes (not loves, but they are above neutral) are my girlfriend's brother, and my grandfather, but this took a while (months) and both basically just ignore him.

In addition, and finally, I promise, Carlin seems to have three reactions towards men:

1) Stereotypical fear, with tail between legs. This is accompanied by hackles and barking. I've only seen this once or twice, and occurs when he gets startled (ie my friend came over while Carlin was sleeping and he woke up to see this stranger in the house).

2)Herding/nipping ankles, accompanied by barking and lunging. This is with an upright tail, and is usually only present when he hasn't gotten enough exercise that day, or when someone (men only, he does NOT do this to ANY women)makes sudden movements or noises.

3)When stressed, will tense up then attempt to lunge with a snap (on leash). This will happen if the strange man approaches us or stares at him. I acknowledge that this last one should never happen, but I don't live alone and there is only so much I can do. His separation anxiety (which I am also trying to deal with) prevents him from being alone if guests come over, so the best thing I can do is have him tethered to me. Despite my best attempts to communicate, most people still find time to stare at him or approach me. This is an uncommon occurrence, as I do my best to prevent these situations from happening.

Thoughts? Thanks and sorry.

Also, I should note that 2 and 3 usually only happen when I'm present. When I'm at work and Carlin stays at home with my grandfather (who he likes) or my dad (who he dislikes and is often the brunt of #2), he doesn't do these things. This leads me to believe he could be resource guarding me? I'm pretty sure it isn't my body language or being tense, as I work very hard to NOT act in a way to make him anxious, and other people have noted how calm and relaxed I am with him.

For #s 1 and 3:

Have you read any of the threads here on desensitizing? Some are very recent.

We have laid out this work in great detail, and I will be happy to pull up some threads and also answer questions, get you started, etc.

Here's a start:

The gist for me is working with the dog, upbeat sessions with HV rewards, just outside his/her trigger range so s/he can focus on me instead of the trigger and let the trigger become mere background noise (desensitized to it). There are many ways to set this up, and there are lots more details about inserting myself between the trigger and the dog, starting the work in a completely distraction-free area to have a basis before taking it "on the road," teaching a simple focus command at home first, and much more, including success stories.

They are mainly about reactivity to other dogs, but the process is similar. It's simpler to set up with humans because you can get the setup man to behave the way you want (walk past at 20 feet, walk past swinging arms, walk past glancing at you and the dog, and so on).



"Despite my best attempts to communicate, most people still find time to stare at him or approach me."

First thing: Stand between the dog and the idiot if this happens. Don't allow the dog to be accosted. I know it sounds awkward, and it can be, but nothing will go further right now in helping the dog to trust that you are in charge and that he does not have to be on guard for his safety than you being proactive in this way.

Thanks for the reply. I have been doing lots of desensitizing, and am at the point where he will do obedience with decent engagement within 5 feet of the person (and accept food). The issue now is the close proximity when social pressure is applied. I have a muzzle (hound of baskerville) and am in the process of conditioning him to that so I can safely work near people.

As per your last paragraph, I do attempt to do that. Interestingly (but frustratingly) is that if I were to allow it, he might approach said person in a curious fashion, but then quickly decide he is too close and get nervous/attempt to bite. Why would he approach if he is just going to get afraid?

What is social pressure?

Also, how is he herding, nipping, and lunging on leash? What situation would that be?


What is "decent engagement"? If it's not great engagement, you need to think about how close you are; you're too close; you have moved too fast.

"Decent" means some attention elsewhere? Too close.

Sorry, social pressure as ME describes in his video on fear periods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs). So by that I mean someone's presence, eye contact, etc.


Herding, nipping, lunging would be off leash when in the house. The obvious solution to this is to keep him on leash in the house, and I'm going to start doing that, but I would like him to be off leash in the house eventually.

You are right about engagement, I should be working at farther distances. I'm still working on engagement under distraction, so by decent engagement I mean he will take food, look at me, listen to my commands, but still every once in a while "noticing" the person.

Thanks once more.

if he's still paying attention to the person...you're too close to the trigger.

desensitizing really takes time...if you're 5 feet from the person and he's nervous than you need to go back a few feet and work from there for awhile longer.
Even though you might feel 3 days (i am just using an example of times here) is long enough to work at 10 feet and since he's relaxed and controlled at 10 feet you can move forward to 5..the dog is telling you it wasn't long enough and you need to go back. Not necessarily to 10 feet...but back up till the dog is in a relaxed state. And if it's at 10 feet stick there for a bit longer.

it's a tricky situation.

have you taken the pup anywhere and let him experience good things around his triggers like ME suggested? I am not talking about applying social pressure ( I don't like that term, seems like flooding to me) I am talking about taking the dog out, not forcing him to interact with anyone, but out to say a park. Sit well back from any commotion and either do some training or just have some fun with him so he learns to associate good things with what triggers him???

as for the nipping, lunging etc....if the dog is on a long line in the house you can prevent these from even starting to happen.
with a long line you can redirect the dog from a further distance before he even gets the chance to do them.

its a long process...i am not going to lie.

I think you might be moving forward too quickly after the dog is relaxed at a certain distance. Read the dog...and if you have to work at 10 feet for a month (again, I am just using an example of a time frame, i am not saying it would take a month), then so be it. The dogs reaction is your best gauge to wether or not you've moved ahead too quickly and need to work longer at a further distance.

Thanks very much! I have done lots of engagement work/obedience/play at a distance from people, and he is fine in those situations. We can walk near men on walks as well, as long as they don't look at him or walk directly at us.

I guess I'm just going to have to be patient and really put in the time. I keep forgetting I've only had him for 11 weeks, and I happened to get him right during adolescence (we think he is around 13-14 months now).

On a positive note, today on the long line in the house, I was able to redirect him before he had a go at my dad (herding/nipping/barking). I can tell he is about to do it based on a stare he gives. Either way, I redirected it, and it passed. Then, I had my dad come on a walk with us, and Carlin did fine.

The main culprit for provocation is usually my dad, as he is absolutely clueless when it comes to interacting with dogs (by his own account he has been bitten by 8 dogs in his life!). As a result, today I bought him "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnel (http://www.amazon.com/Other-End-Leash-What-Around/dp/034544678X), so we will see how that goes.

I am sorry I haven't gone and look at any other threads you've started, but is Carlin a rescue dog?

 Quote: John Vanek

he might approach said person in a curious fashion, but then quickly decide he is too close and get nervous/attempt to bite. Why would he approach if he is just going to get afraid?

John;

Two of my siblings and another family friend have dogs that do that with me. The particularly disturbing part is that they will accept other men and strangers, and have seen me their entire lives, but still react (most animals take to me right off, so I can't figure this out). I do not approach other ppl's dogs or make the first move to socialize, so I've not been able to isolate the trigger.

What usually happens is that the dog gets nervous when I enter the home. I ignore the dog, including no eye contact or personal pressure whatsoever. As the visit progresses, the dog seems to get curious and ventures closer. However, if I so much as look at it, or reach down to pet, the dog will startle and withdraw, then the whole process starts over. I get the feeling that I might be able to desensitize these dogs, but I just don't spend enough time with them.

My read on that behavior is that something I did in the past startled the dog (maybe a loud voice?), but that the dog sees me every now and then and wishes to get closer (or is curious, as you put it) but is just too nervous. When I look at him or make any kind of move, the dog reacts.

Some here will disagree with my idea, as some ppl don't believe in having friends/visitors help with training, but that's exactly what I might try in your case. If you could get your dad to sit quietly and not look at the dog or react when the dog approaches, you might be able to employ your dad in your desensitizing work. It might also give your dad more insight as to how to interact with dogs.

JMO

 Quote: Wendy Lefebvre

I am sorry I haven't gone and look at any other threads you've started, but is Carlin a rescue dog?

Sorry, should have mentioned that. Yes, he is. He was beaten by his previous owners (badly enough for bruises), and was shot before going through 2 foster homes.

Duane, thank you for those suggestions. My dad HAS scared Carlin in the past due to his rude behavior (unintentional, and despite my best to prevent it).