We have been working on controlled agitation in our training sessions - Trainer approaches, uses a whip to make the cracking sound and work the dog up to unleash his frustration on a tug/rag/sleeve. Duke sometimes responds very well to this and sometimes not - he is often more interested in playing with the trainer than the toy I was actually able to get him on the sleeve last time as he loves to engage with me during training and was, at that point, only interested in getting his teeth on me. He has almost 0 interest in the sleeve when it's in anyone else's hands/arm.

I decided to get an inexpensive whip for agitation purposes at home to see if I can better help him divert his frustration onto the tug and learn this as a general practice. I tethered him to the fence, picked up the whip and he immediately lit up and started giving his big boy bark before I even cracked it - but had absolutely 0 interest in the toy. At that point, he wanted the whip. Just the whip. Nothing but the whip. He wanted to eat it.

I was having a hard time not laughing my butt off - he got a good workout either way, which is good since I'm not really able to be on my feet for more than 15 minutes at a time right now. Also, I learned that I have to put the whip up before I get him off tether - he ripped my shirt for the first time in about 5 months

I'm going to discuss this with my trainer at our next session this weekend - in the interim, anyone have any good ideas on helping him transfer the frustration to the toy?

I really need to get some new bite toys, he is bored stiff of the rope toys I've made him.

I'll also take any and all suggestions for working with him while my mobility is limited. He's not a huge fan of fetch, he usually wants us to either chase him or play tug Thank god for my 3 year old loving to chase the dog - Duke does very well with him at this point, as long as I ensure they aren't interacting after Duke's gotten overtly worked up - he herds the heck out of some preschoolers.

(side note - raw feeding has really improved his grip, he used to be unable to compress the hard tug that we had but is able to grip and hold it quite readily now. I'm sure some of this is maturity but part of it is probably the jaw workout from edible bone )

Kristin;

I'm new to bitework and only have about 6-8 mos. exp as a helper, but that is not at all how most trainers teach bitework, IME. Prey drive is how the dog is put on a sleeve, not frustration. Frustration is used to build prey drive, IME, and it's all about the helper.
I'll ask my TD about this on Wed night. At our club, we use completely different tactics to start a dog in bitework. Also, most ppl advocate against the owner doing the work.

I'd be careful about building drive for the whip. We have a pit in our club that I have worked a lot in my training (because he is experienced; green helpers don't work green dogs). He has, at some point, developed drive for the whip, and it's a big obstacle for us. I had to be coached on how to give a bite while holding the whip, without letting the dog target the whip.

I hope some more experienced ppl weigh in.

ETA; The agitation work is not used to get the dog on the sleeve. We don't start the agitation until the dog already has prey drive and is solid on tugging.



Edited by Duane Hull (01/28/2013 12:50 PM)
Edit reason: eta

"(because he is experienced; green helpers don't work green dogs)"

Point taken there - I'm really just trying to find ways to keep him exercised during this 'lull' in physical activity for us, I adamantly do not want to have him develop any serious bad habits that could prevent us from having fun in protection sports later (I don't think we'll ever compete but never say never ) When engaging with me, which he does readily, it's been pure play/prey to the point that the trainer has commented on Duke drive seems to be purely to play with people (but with his teeth). I know that generally a dog is not trained in defense until they're older but I guess I've been trusting the trainer to know the line. Hmm.
ETA: tugging is excellent at home, but not as good under distraction - people and other dogs are higher value to him than me with a tug until I really start playing with him, and then it's still me that he values, not the tug.

I also am pretty new to the bitework so take this for what it's worth. My 11 month old rottie is basically the same way. Not wanting the whip, but he has little interest in the sleeve so far. He'll do the rag or the tug very well. He'll even jump up at the helper with the helper holding the tug up near his face/chest and bite it. But as soon as we go to the sleeve, he sniffs it, mouths it a little, occasionally tries to bite the ends. Every now and then he'll bit it but not with much force. I'm told that it's a maturity thing. Particularly with rotties because they apparently mature alot later than gsd's or mals. You don't say how old Duke is right now, but it sounds alot like what I'm going through with my rottie right now. By the way, having the dog chased by your child to retrieve toys is not the best idea. You want the dog to want to engage you with the toy, not play keep away with it.

Duke and your boy are the same age , Duke turned 11 months 2 days ago - oddly enough there's a Rott in our class that is the same age and VERY defensive already - he lit up when Duke and I were roughhousing, dragging his handler across the field prong and all, and that happened multiple times over several weeks. I would say he's not at all typical of what I know of Rotts. (it was also pretty irritating, but that's besides the point.)
The rule is normally that Duke wants to bring the toy to us to tug - if we try to initiate a game of fetch - throw, brink, aus, that's when he decides that it would be more fun to run away.
Generally the running around with our boy happens outside any sort of structured obedience sessions and is just (very closely observed) free play Good exercise for both of them, and Duke responds readily to commands that he's getting too rough/excited with Charlie. I really wish Charlie listened as well!
ETA: Duane, I'm reading through your prey drive thread now, hoping I can apply some of the same advice

Frustration and agitation ARE NOT the same. We don't agitate until the prey work is solid. Frustration is used to build prey.

The first thing we do is evaluate with the dog on the fence, to determine how closely we can do prey work without putting the dog in defense. We then (in a subsequent session; not with a hot dog), with the dog on the fence again, start some teasing with a rag, then a tug, on a rope. Once the dog is amped for the tug (or a bite pillow), we start moving in a little bit and get animated, giving the dog some misses, and eventually some drive-by bites on the tug or pillow. IMHO, this is what Duke needs next. We use this same approach to get the dog on the sleeve, WHEN THE TIME COMES.

The reason the owner doesn't take actual bites or agitation from the owner is that you risk putting the dog in defense, and possibly creating handler aggression.

Introducing the whip too early, IME, creates drive for the whip.

Keep in mind, my dog is a completely different animal. You can build Duke's drive by the method I just described.

"The reason the owner doesn't take actual bites or agitation from the owner is that you risk putting the dog in defense, and possibly creating handler aggression." I am taking this very seriously. Will let you know what our next steps will be - and it's a cheap whip, won't hurt it to sit in a closet

Hope we get some experienced help here.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Hope we get some experienced help here.

I see good points from you guys! And will email/seek very experienced help too.

And also not to overlook these as the described use of the whip is discussed: "he herds the heck out of some preschoolers" and "By the way, having the dog chased by your child to retrieve toys is not the best idea. You want the dog to want to engage you with the toy, not play keep away with it."

I reviewed the entire thread again, and I think both dogs (Marco AND Duke) would benefit from fence work with the tug, done properly. Restrained, with lots of high level teasing, but not agitation. IMO, that would be the next step for a dog with prey that needs to get to the next level., Plus, more dynamic work in your tugging away from the field.

Do either, or both, of you have "Advanced Concepts in Motivation"? It's that time.