Okay, so I finally have my dog coming back to me and dropping the stick if I throw another one. This took a LONG time for her to get.

1. As I am preparing for sch. in the spring, I want to get started with commands. As she runs for the stick I am saying "FIND IT" and as she has it in her mouth and saying "COME". She does come back to me but as far as sitting in front of me, we're not at that point when there is an item in her mouth. Is "COME" the correct command?
2.She is CRAZED with drive so to offer food while training (even if steak), she doesn't even open her mouth. So I have a toy she loves. I say "SIT" when she arrives back in my vicinity, it takes her about 10 seconds to do it, but she is like a spinning top waiting to spin out of control as soon as I toss something.

I do the long line. I do the prong. I am good at correcting. But I don't want to correct her for returning to me or in my vicinity as we have just got the "OUT".

When do I correct?
For the slow sit? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
For not stopping in front of me? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks

I wouldn't correct at all right now.

I would go through the same steps that you are using but when she is returning I would crouch on one knee and say come (usually if you are in this position they will come any way, this face licking position). When she gets close to you (raise slightly or catch her with your hand to stop her from knocking you over) grab the stick and say sit. Praise her when she sits, give the "out command" take the stick and wave it and start all over again.

No corrects until she knows what you want her to do, because the stick is the treat its either do this well and I throw it quickly, do it wrong and it takes longer to throw the stick. They figure this out.

No correction right now, she sound like a great dog, have fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Work on the recall with a sit front seperately from the retrieve.Make her recall sit front for the toy.Keep walking backwards(holding leash) till she is in right place.Id practice the sit front on a six foot lead till she learns it.

Structurely David training technique is probably best.

I was just trying to get her to use what she had been working with. Instead of say that all she had been doing was wrong and ineffective. I was just saying add this and see if it works.

Training technique wise David's method would produce a better sit after the retrieve - recall.

Collen start over from stracht, if you want it rock solid. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How old is this dog? Does he know any formal commands at all?

Yes Sch3FH2
she has formal obedience. She knows the:
sit, stay, down, come, stand, the swing, but all with no toys, just on a leash or off, if in the house.

Once I add the element of a toy, stick and ball, she is an absolute nut. You can tell she cannot think straight, that all she wants is that ball.

I did the one knee thing, but when she approaches me, she will not out. Even as I hold the other item high in the air...or she challengs me by lunging onto me.

So I am working 2 different commands before the dog is ready. I get it.

Make the retreive a fun thing until she outs (basically spits the item out). But make her work a bit (for now) on the recall.

She outs great (spits it on the ground) but as I try now to get her to out it in my hand, the tug of war (to which I will not play) is on.

Am I again going to fast? How long should I work one command before entering another. The out (with 2 times) has now been a month.

Thanks so much. I have learnt much on this board.

I think I'm confused on what your goal is here - are you trying to train a formal retrieve or just concerned about your recall or just trying to make it a more fun game of 2-toys? If the goal is to train a formal retrieve, yes you are going too fast, trying to do too much at one time. You need to break it down into the individual elements that make up a finished retrieve and teach each element separately. The retrieve is a behavior chain of many small behaviors strung together; train it in reverse for best results. So the dog learns to hold an item in its mouth calmly first, then to sit in front with it, then to take a few steps towards you, sit and hold. Then pick it up, come to you, sit and hold, etc etc.

On the issue of the dog losing its mind with toys, you have two choices: make up your mind to teach him how to focus his motivation into working for it (yes it can be done), or stop using them and use food instead.

Dont be to hard on me for saying this BUT, The retrieve. The fetch, pick up, return,hold, and release should be tought as five seperate items, in my openion. It is also the only time I believe force is necessary for the dog to be reliable.
I know every one has a dog that does great with motivation only. But the fact is some dont. The tape sold here Bernards on the forced retrieve is packed full of info.

Ron

Yes a formal retrieve is my goal. I want to be ready for the schutzhund club that begins when the weather is nicer. I saw the dogs there....none are beginners, so I want to at least have her bring the item to me, sit and release.

Okay, I will slow it down. And take it in steps.

Thank you

A lesson I recently learned that is killer is the importance of seperating the ball drive from the dogs impulse to focus on it till it gets it.Make the dog learn that the only way to get to the object is through staring into your eyes.Make the dog maintain focus in your eyes then the reward.Start by putting the dog in a sit and making it maintain a stare in your eyes while staying in the sit, then reward.I think this would solve some of your problems.