Marco (1 year old male rottie as of yesterday) has always, so far, stayed very engaged with me. My recall has been great with him, although I haven't added distraction yet. Probably should have done that by now. Sometimes during the week, when I get off early, I'll take him to our clubs training field and work with him there on my own. We recently started working on the send out. So the last two times, both within the past week, that I've tried it, I sent him from about 5' twice and then about 10' once. Then tried 10' for a second time and he goes and gets the ball, comes back to me, drops the ball and takes off running away from me. No apparent reason or distraction and ignores the recall. How exactly should I fix this? Is this him starting to mature and try to challenge me or something else?

I think it is several things.

1st you are moving too fast. No recall proofed with distractions. A big open area is a major distraction for a young dog...even if there are not a lot of people etc around. You should have a long line on him if he is not totally solid on a recall, (& for a while after you think that he is) so that he can't run off. Otherwise you are just teaching him that he CAN do that if he wants to.

Also you should have stayed with the 5 ft a couple of times with good results & quit for the day. After a few days of that being consistent....move on to 6 ft for a few days of solid..then 7 ft.

Also at a year old...some testing of the boundries is very normal. He's also a puppy acting like one.

When I teach a new behavior to a young dog I start in the kitchen or other quiet place in the house. Then move to the back yard...then the front yard or driveway...then the sidewalk & then down the street & then to other locals. I don't move on unless it is very solid for a few days or more if needed in each spot. Open areas with all that is around with new smells, even distant movement are all major distractions to a learning,especially, young dog.

I would not continue with the send outs until you have a very solid recall under high distations otherwise you are building on a weak foundation.

SLOW down..there is no rush...the dog doesn't need to learn everything before it's barely over a year old. Build a VERY solid foundation with which to grow the dog from.

Anne, while reading your response I realized that I actually have done recalls with distraction at the club with the other members there and he's been solid. Although it hasn't been very often and maybe that's not enough distraction since he's used to seeing those people. I'm not trying to go too fast. I was following the direction of our trainer on starting the send out. How would you start training the send out in your house?

By the way, he was on a long line. First time I wasn't expecting it. Second time my thought was "he knows the recall, I'll give him a good leash correction and then reward when he comes back to me" but the leash got wrapped around his legs so that didn't work.

I have taught it to several different dogs...different ways. 2 of the ways that I have taught it are:

The easiest way would be to use touch pads & progress from there. Do you know how to use touch pads? I would start that way. Eventually moving the pad farther & farther out & sending the dog out to touch them...calling the dog back & rewarding with a tug or ball.

If you have a dog that really likes to retrieve you can... you can place a ball on a hanger like a plant hook pushed into the ground & standing up so the ball can hang at mouth level for the dog....that the dog can get the ball on a rope off of. Eventually moving it farther & farther out.

I would then teach the dog to down on command away from you out of motion. You can put him on a long line to enforce the down if needed.... eventually adding more & more distance. Until you can send the dog out across the field & down him at distances further & further away. An exercise totally seperate from the send out...once it is solid then combine the 2 exercises.

Eventually the 'crutch' of the touch pad or ball hanging will be placed at the end of the field out of sight...but the dog believes it is out there at the end of the field & will work on that asumption...which is fine because the dog will not be going all the way out to get it...he will be downed before he gets to it & then called back. Although in the early stages of it's being that far out in the field I allow the dog to go all the way out there to get it so they learn that it IS out there.

I assume you are talking about teaching a dog for SchH sendouts. Ther are always a number of ways to teach the same thing. Each dog will respond better to one way or another of the different ways. You need to decide what works best for each dog.

Not sure that I would be so quick to correct for the recall noncompliance...I'd be more ready to just redirect the dog into doing the correct thing..which is by controlling the dog's ability to go away. Reel him back to you...rather then correct.

O.K. I haven't used touch pads, but I do understand how to teach it. I may try that. So far Marco has pretty good ball drive if I'm moving it or throwing it. In fact, our two trainers commented the other day that his ball drive was higher than they're used to seeing with a rottie. But when it's just hanging there from the stand for the send out, he will go get it, but it's not with alot of enthusiasm. It seems like if it's not moving, his interest isn't as high.

"Not sure that I would be so quick to correct for the recall noncompliance ... I'd be more ready to just redirect the dog into doing the correct thing ... which is by controlling the dog's ability to go away. Reel him back to you ... rather then correct."


Me too. My goal when teaching the recall is not to have to correct. Definitely not (ever!) in the teaching phase.

Unless someone else has tainted the dog's recall, I almost never even need the long line. It's there, but if I have to reel the dog in repeatedly, I have screwed up the foundation.

If I do need it at the stage you're at, Kory, I simply reel him in.


JMO!

So if I just reel him in, how does he know that what he did isn't acceptable?

"O.K. I haven't used touch pads, but I do understand how to teach it. I may try that. So far Marco has pretty good ball drive if I'm moving it or throwing it. In fact, our two trainers commented the other day that his ball drive was higher than they're used to seeing with a rottie. But when it's just hanging there from the stand for the send out, he will go get it, but it's not with alot of enthusiasm. It seems like if it's not moving, his interest isn't as high."


Then use the touch pads..that way the reward will be when he returns to you & you play tug with the animnated ball or a tug...whichever he likes best.

All my dogs have had a ton of ball drive & will retrieve a motionless ball, & carry for reward as well as return to play tug with me with one for a reward. So I don't know what else to suggest other then the touch pads if he doesn't have that kind of ball drive.

I would think that if you have 2 trainers at your club & they are are as experienced with rotts as they claim, or any other breeds for that matter,they should be able to work with you on this. It's really just a matter of finding what turns the dog on. He's a young dog...some don't develope higher drive until they are 9-10 -12 months old..even later. Different breeds & lines develope at different rates. Athough, I personally want to see it before that.

 Quote: Kory Fox

So if I just reel him in, how does he know that what he did isn't acceptable?

You are still teaching the recall. You haven't sufficiently proofed for distraction. Corrections are for non-compliance of a thoroughly-trained and thoroughly-proofed command.

Here are some points made by Cindy on the LB site, and she is talking about the recall:

QUOTE:
The following are a list of the biggest mistakes novice trainers make, don't let yourself fall into one of these traps:

They don't praise enough when a dog does the command properly. You really need to exaggerate the praise when you dog train (men have more of a problem with this than women - it’s an ego thing I think).

They start the correction phase too soon. In other words, they start to correct the dog before it understands what the command means. That's simply unfair to the dog. You need to be 100% sure the dog understands what you are asking him to do before you correct him for not doing it.*

Novice trainers try and teach new commands in places where the distractions are too high. END

*
(My note: That means you have already gradually worked up to and have reliable compliance under the level of distraction you are now exposing him to.)



"He knows the recall, I'll give him a good leash correction and then reward when he comes back to me."

"He knows the recall" means that he is reliable under high-level distraction ---- gradually-introduced distraction, including distance.

Anne said (and I agree 100%): " ... you should have stayed with the 5 ft a couple of times with good results & quit for the day. After a few days of that being consistent.... move on to 6 ft for a few days of solid. .then 7 ft."

Also

"I would not continue with the send outs until you have a very solid recall under high distations otherwise you are building on a weak foundation."


I too would want a great recall under high distraction before moving on with the sendout.

This is what probably sounds like a broken record to you by now of "slow down" and "foundation."

JMO!