I don't do Schutzhund, but our team requires the dog to do a bark and hold on their alert when finding the victim.
My dog is 2 1/2 and she has started jumping on the victim, pulling them, trying to penatrate things they hide under or behind. Not out of aggression, but to get them to give her the reward even if they don't have it.
This isn't a big problem unless you look at it from the victims point of view.
I need to know of some methods to teach her to stay back and bark. It's almost like she's trying to get them to move or respond to her.
My husband has been helping with this by playing the victim and correcting her any time she touches him (verbal), then giving the reward with praise when she backs off and barks.

I moved this thread to the SAR section.

Thanks. Wasn't sure where it belonged.

Lynn
If I understand you, Your teaching her to do what she is doing.
If your husband is the decoy, and he gives the reward. The dog is going after the reward,
Some one other than the decoy should give the reward. He can give verbal praise when she backs off. But you or the handler should give the reward.
Ron

So what do I do to undo the problem?
If I have the reward she will pretty much tackle the hider. She's overenthusiastic I guess. She tries to bully them until she gets the toy regardless of them having it or myself having it. In SAR training "victim loyality" is stressed upon. The victim rewards and does all the play to encourage the dog to stay with them, and to teach the dog that the victim is fun.
I don't really care as long as she finds them and tells me. I just don't want the victim to be a "victim" when found by my dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Lynn
Ive never trained tracking in Drive or scent tracking, only foot step, So I cant help you there But I do know dogs and how they think. Im positive that what you are doing is teaching the problem.
I would get the number of a good trainer of SAR dogs and make a phone call.
I teach the bark and hold on the SchH field, usually with a third person and the use of a long like to keep the dog from touching the helper. But I would think your dog is quite a distance from you for a find.
If it were me I would probably let the hidden person have control of a E-coller. When the dog touches him in any way,Low voltage stem. NO VERBAGE at all. Calm and quite. Let the dog think he (the dog) is causing the stem. by touching.
Good luck
Ron

Lynn,
Any reason your team doesn't use a recall/refind? Just curious. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Could you shorten your distance so that when the dog makes the find, you can be right there on top of it to reward as soon as the desired behavior is offered? This might be a good application for using a clicker. Use the clicker to mark the very second the dog barks without making physical contact with the subject, then you whip out the toy so the reward comes from you. If you haven't used a clicker with your dog, you'll need to spend some time charging it so that it becomes a conditioned reinforcer.

You could even back up so far as to practice the bark/hold alert with the dog on leash. You could do this by setting up some blinds (old refrigerator boxes, or any cardboard box big enough for a human to hide inside is fine) in a parking lot or other open space. Set up three to four of the boxes, and walk the dog around them, one at a time, with the dog on leash. When the dog shows interest in the correct box, give the hider a cue word to open up the box, then you tell your dog "tell me" or whatever cue you have used to teach the bark alert, then mark it with the clicker and either you give the party or have the hider party with the dog (either way, access to the party is controlled by you, as marked by the clicker). With the leash, you can control the dog's behavior and not give the toy until the correct alert behavior is given.

The "subject loyalty" thing IS really important, I will agree with you there. However, it sounds to me like your dog already has it, and you can tweak your training a bit to induce the correct response without compromising subject loyalty. Once the dog really understands the bark/hold alert and is consistently not "mauling" the subject for the toy because YOU have the toy, then you could go back to having the subject have the toy but again shorten up your distance so that you can be right there when the find occurs. If you use the clicker to mark the right behavior, then the dog will know that you control access to the toy, regardless of who has it.

BTW, I've seen several dogs "maul" the hider, and I've been on the receiving end a few times. I've noticed that this stops when the dog really starts to understand that the handler must be present for the reward to be given (we use a recall/refind). Sometimes if the dog is really tired (such as after working for longer than they're used to or if it's hot out) or if the problem was set up more difficult than the dog is used to, they'll try the mauling because they're trying to skip the step of going back to the handler for the alert and refind. If we follow up with a very short motivational runaway (once the dog has had a rest), usually they won't "maul" but will go straight back to the handler.

Just some ideas, hope you figure something out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lynn
I've been working with Steve on the B&H for Thunder. I won't be there this week but go and talk with him. I'll gaurantee he'll have an answer. Having been on the recieving end of Ali's desire to get her toy I think the key with her is to do it under control for so long, she forgets how to do it any other way. Like Ron said, a long line with a third person. Talk with Steve about the e-collar also. As you've talked with me, she's wise to the collar now.

Ron,
I totally agree that I have conditioned this responce. I think it happened because she is a dog that is all about the work, and could really care less about the people involved. She was encouraged to get in close to create the victim loyality required.
Lisa,
I've tried the line up in human sized boxes. It seems to just encourage her to get at the victim even more. Especially while on leash. This was created by yet another thing I did <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I taught her to bark using resistance.
Bob,
I'll be able to make Schutzhund training on Saturday. I'm trying to prep for the forensic class on Monday. Wanna give some blood? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .
I'll see what I can set up using ya'lls advice. I'll let you know.

Lynn, have you taught her to sit or down for her B/H alert?