Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
#374872 - 03/11/2013 03:55 PM |
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As some of you know, my MOm has a dog that had calcium oxalate stones. Does anyone know if or where I can find the info on whether he could have these herbs without causing him more issue?
Green tea Extract
Tumeric
Ashwaganda
Bacopa
Milk Thistle
Also really confused on the addition of calcium in the diet. This supplement has a small amount of dicalcium phosphate and calcium carbonate, although an entire pill has 77 mg and it would probably take him the better part of a week to ingest the whole thing. he is 13 pounds and the pill will do up to a 350lb person. My dog could take a whole one at 109 pounds but I give him a half right now just to save cash temporarily.
Thanks! Julie
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374873 - 03/11/2013 04:21 PM |
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As some of you know, my MOm has a dog that had calcium oxalate stones. Does anyone know if or where I can find the info on whether he could have these herbs without causing him more issue?
Green tea Extract
Tumeric
Ashwaganda
Bacopa
Milk Thistle
Also really confused on the addition of calcium in the diet. This supplement has a small amount of dicalcium phosphate and calcium carbonate, although an entire pill has 77 mg and it would probably take him the better part of a week to ingest the whole thing. he is 13 pounds and the pill will do up to a 350lb person. My dog could take a whole one at 109 pounds but I give him a half right now just to save cash temporarily.
Thanks! Julie
Hi, Julie,
Is your dog on home-cooked? I'm not following why he is getting a calcium supplement.
Your mother's dog is on home-cooked, from Lew Olson, right? And calcium is addressed on that page:
" .... about 900 mg per pound of food served."
What is the intended purpose for those herbs for her dog?
You have a calcium supplement for humans with only 77 mg of calcium? That doesn't really make sense. Do you have a link?
I would much rather see her grind eggshells, which are free if you eat any eggs (and are calcium carbonate) and giving the exact amount needed than whatever that supplement is.
This is simple: Rinse and dry the shells. Grind to powder in a spice grinder or with a mortar and pestle or in a cup or small bowl with the back of a spoon. A pound of food needs about 900 mg calcium, which is about 1/2 measuring teaspoon. This should be done when the food is still in a form where you know what a pound is. Doing it with each meal is extremely tricky with a dog that size (or actually, any dog).
Please post back if this isn't clear.
ETA
Calcium supplementation makes up for the lack of bones in a cooked (or boneless for some other reason) diet.
It's not for a balanced raw diet based on RMBs, or a commercial diet.
Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/11/2013 04:21 PM)
Edit reason: ETA
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374884 - 03/11/2013 06:50 PM |
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Ok, I kept reading conflicting info on calcium. I'll go with that.
The herbs are in a supplement called Protandim. This is my business. I mean my work business. It is what I do. I take it as does my family. In it's simplest explanation, it increases your body's production of NrF2. NrF2 is a gene regulator. Research is showing that it may have an effect on many many genes called the survival genes, of which there are maybe 400. You have more NrF2 when you are young, less when you are older.
There are 13 studies on pubmed.gov that have been done so far and more in the works. The reasoning behind looking at it for Bentley is that even with the diet, increased water and pee opportunities he is again showing the same pain signals he has before surgery. As I type he is at the vet.
I researched a little on dogs who recur even with correct diet and they think with some it may be lack of sufficient production of a certain gene. So I thought why not give if a try. I already send it to Mom, why not give Bentley a tiny dose every day? As long as it wouldn't cause more issues.
There has been a year long study done on dogs and oxidative stress but I know that the people version is ok for dogs too. Many of us give it to our dogs, me included. They found that dogs have approximately 7 times the oxidative stress that people do and although they can't claim it, or won't without a study to back it up, I feel like reducing Tank's oxidative stress can go nothing but help and I will be thrilled if it extends his life.
So I know for sure it is safe for dogs. Do that is why I am asking about the herbs. Just a thought that maybe it could help. I could post all the links here but I didn't want it to look like I am trying to promote my business on this site. If you google it you will find all kinds of negative and all kinds of overly ridiculous positive. If you go to pubmed.gov you will find the actual research.
Do you think it's possible to find out if these herbs are ok for stones? I could go through the company but that might take awhile to get to someone familiar with oxalate stones, I don't know. J
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374886 - 03/11/2013 08:15 PM |
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"Do you think it's possible to find out if these herbs are ok for stones?"
For oxalate stones specifically (remember that different stones have different properties):
Turmeric is on the list "to avoid" for oxalate formers. Bacopa monnieri contains visible oxalate formations, but I don't know how much.
I don't know the others; those two seemed to me to be enough of a "no" for oxalate formers.
(Of course, this is strictly about oxalate-forming individuals .... not about those herbs in general.)
"The consumption of supplemental doses of turmeric .... can significantly increase urinary oxalate levels, thereby increasing risk of kidney stone formation in susceptible individuals."
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/5/1262.full
"Powder microscopy: Diagnostic character of Bacopa monnieri shows prismatic, cluster crystals of calcium oxalate ... "
from "A comparative study of roots of bacopa monnieri" by JS Gubbannavar (which I can't find online).
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374893 - 03/11/2013 08:27 PM |
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Well there is enough info right there to make it a No. Sometimes just because something is good in general does not make it good for an individual specifically. I can't take vit c supplements even though they are very healthy in general.
Thanks do much for that info. So very helpful. Mom will be sad. She wanted him to have it.
She called back from her trip to the vet tonight. All clear on urine and stones. He convinced her to add a little salt to his diet. Ugh. He also said grind up pet smart pet tabs and put in his food, and I said absolutely not until I see what is in them. J
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374894 - 03/11/2013 08:36 PM |
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"Sometimes just because something is good in general does not make it good for an individual specifically. "
You're very correct. You were smart to check.
What are smart pet tabs?
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374899 - 03/11/2013 10:28 PM |
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Looks like a multi vitamin mineral supplement. I frown on most things sold at petsmart.
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374900 - 03/11/2013 10:30 PM |
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Wheat Germ, Kaolin, Corn Syrup, Pork Liver Meal, Dicalcium Phosphate, Sugar, Lactose, Safflower Oil, Gelatin, Corn Starch, Stearic Acid, Niacinamide, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein, Iron Oxide and Peptone, Magnesium Stearate, dl-Alpha Tocopheryl Acetate, Vitamin A Acetate, Zinc Oxide, Riboflavin-5-Phosphate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Acetate Monohydrate, Vitamin D3, Cobalt Sulfate.
Calcium
(minimum) 2.5%
(maximum 3.5%
Phosphorus 2.5%
Potassium 0.4%
Salt
(minimum) 0.1%
(maximum) 0.6%
Chloride 0.1%
Magnesium 0.15%
Iron 3.0 mg
Copper 0.1 mg
Manganese 0.25 mg
Zinc 1.4 mg
Vitamin A 1,000 IU
Vitamin D3 100 IU
Vitamin E 2 IU
Thiamine 0.81 mg
Riboflavin 1.0 mg
Niacin 10.0 mg
Vitamin B6 0.1 mg
Vitamin B12 0.5 mcg
Additional Information:
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374904 - 03/11/2013 11:27 PM |
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http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755090
I got as far as four forms of sugar and artificial Vitamin E. :-(
A multi, even if it was better quality than that one, might not be the best thing for this dog, because of the extra calcium and the D in it, which you might question with an oxalate stone former. (You would not give C, either, but many or most multis for dogs don't contain C.)
I think we already talked about this dog needing both fish oil and natural vitamin E, right? (Quick recap on the E: d-alpha, not dl-alpha, preferably with mixed tocopherols.) And we talked about B-6 for calcium oxalate formers (the RDA, which is .01 mg per pound)?
Salt is a definite maybe. The evidence on salt and these stones conflicts. I think many vets are now agreeing that a little salt will increase water intake and the flushing that we were saying was so important.
I have some "oxalate stones and vitamins" material and something about the salt that I will dig up in the morning.
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Re: Can calcium oxalate dogs have these herbs?
[Re: Julie Sloan ]
#374906 - 03/11/2013 11:31 PM |
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PS
Encouraging water intake and urination remains the key daily prevention action.
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