Moved from a thread about an individual pedigree:

 Quote: Charles Finley

.... most GSD regardless of pedigree do no work. The hardest working dog I ever owned was a Great Pyrenees who guarded livestock 24/7 365, always outdoors whatever the weather. As far as I know she never bit a burlap sleeve but she was as tough as any German Shepherd and did her "work" well. The working line distinction means nothing in fact .. it is a political term rather than a biological one.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

I disagree in a sense. I've never seen a real working showline dog of any sense. No showline PSDs or MWDs, no showline Aussies or Border Collies on cattle, etc.

They actually did a recent study that found significant genetic differences in showline and working line German Shepherds in Europe - suggesting they might as well be separate breeds.

That's not to say showlines can't work and can't get titled - but I've yet to see any doing the "real" work your Pyr is capable of (which in itself is entirely different than human apprehension).

I don't think showlines are bad dogs, they're just different dogs.

 Quote: Charles Finley

Working dog is a code word for bite trained, protection, or police work trained dogs. It is used by some dog breeders and organizations to avoid the stigma of training dogs for bite work. There are many breeds and bloodlines of dogs that do real work such as herding and guarding breeds, tracking, or detection work that the AWDF and other organizations with "working" in their logo do not consider working dogs. Beagles are used by the Federal agents who look for illegal plants and pests yet they are not considered working dogs by most who train dogs for bite work. The majority of schutzhund dogs don't bite anything but a sleeve and never apprehend anyone. Many police department don't even want a dog with schutzhund training as a candidate for K9 work. The persistent use of working line and show line is unjustified as many dogs fit into both artificial designations.

continued (moved):

 Quote: Charles Finley

The work the German Shepherd was created for originally was herding primarily so explain what dogs with huge heads and shoulders have to do with that. I have Czech dogs many of whom have parentage from the Czech and DDR border guard dogs. I like my dogs for their athletic ability and temperament but there is no color or appearance that makes my dogs "working dog". As far as I can tell we have no illegals trying to escape to what was Western Germany in my neighborhood for them to apprehend.

Shamelessly stolen links. http://sakury.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/9/5/10955576/german_shepherd_lines_are_genetically_differen_final.pdf
http://www.rsv2000.de/export/sites/default/en/media/downloads/health-concerns/clarifications-to-the-genetic-differentiation.pdf

Genetic differentiation, between working and show lines of one breed.

"Working dog" is not based on color or appearance.

The fact that today's GSD is different in appearance that those that were originally developed is because of genetic engineering within the WUSV to conform to a breed standard that would make the dog more competitive in the show ring, hence the divisions among German breeders. With all of the perusing you do on the internet, I find it hard to believe that you are not learned in this aspect.

ETA; you are also trying to blur the distinction between working dog and working line dog...smoke and mirrors.
A breeder in my club imports Belgian working lines, and these are much closer to original herding GSD than today's show lines are. I own a small bitch that has, among other lines, Leerburg in her pedigree, and she resembles the original GSD much more than a show line does.

Just because a dog, such as the GSD or Malinois, becomes the dog of choice in an industry other than the one that it was originally developed for doesn't somehow make it a failure, or less of a dog. GSDs fell into military and police service because the traits that made it desirable for herding also lent themselves to police work.



Edited by Duane Hull (03/13/2013 04:25 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Duane,

Just to be clear, who were you directing your post to?

Mike

 Quote: Charles Finley

Working dog is a code word for bite trained, protection, or police work trained dogs. It is used by some dog breeders and organizations to avoid the stigma of training dogs for bite work.

This makes no sense.
How do you run a business when you're stigmatized by what you do and are trying to sugar coat your services?

And how many K9s have you placed with police to know what they are looking for?

Most certainly it sounds like your Pyr was a great worker and a fantastic guardian. I bet her genetics and breeding played a major role in that.

So I look at working line as dog's bred to perform a specific function with the necessary physical traits such as appropriate size and stamina, temperment, problem solving skills, and drive. Showline is bred for form, sound temperment, movement, personality and a uniform appearance.

Their are great breeders in both categories, that work to better the breed. It is a personal choice of what works best for you. Thor would be considered showline, a perfect match for my family.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Duane,

Just to be clear, who were you directing your post to?

Mike

Sorry, Mike... This was carried over from another thread that Mr. Finley had derailed. This was directed to him, in response to...

 Quote: Charles Finley

The work the German Shepherd was created for originally was herding primarily so explain what dogs with huge heads and shoulders have to do with that. I have Czech dogs many of whom have parentage from the Czech and DDR border guard dogs. I like my dogs for their athletic ability and temperament but there is no color or appearance that makes my dogs "working dog". As far as I can tell we have no illegals trying to escape to what was Western Germany in my neighborhood for them to apprehend.

Working Dog Breeds

 Quote: Charles Finley

Working Dog Breeds

How about a little context here Charles, to help clarify some of your strong views. You proclaim you have "Working Line Dogs" and that you had a "Showline Dog" But now your saying those terms don't mean anything.

Did you show your showline dog? Have you ever trained your working line dogs in any type of formal, judged venue?

The unpublished and non-peer reviewed study proved nothing except the researchers needed much more work .. now those who are science challenged have grabbed on to the questionable science done and turned it into their "evolution is a theory" moment.

They actually did a recent study that found significant genetic differences in showline and working line German Shepherds in Europe - suggesting they might as well be separate breeds.