I use a choke-off regularly in certain stages of training, and for several behavioral issues, but I'm wondering under what conditions experienced puppy trainers think this is a viable correction method.

I may take some heat over this, but that's OK with me

The definition of a choke-off in my book is taking a dog's air away by using a twisting motion on a correctly positioned flat collar (under the chin, tight behind the ears), until the dog lets go / calms down. I pair this action with a calm verbal correction.

Fama has a choker on in these pics, but you get the idea.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/dwinners/_MSR7038.jpg
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/rr69/dwinners/_MSR7087.jpg

I will use a choke-off to get the puppy to out something dangerous before training LEAVE IT is complete. I will also use a choke-off if the puppy is attacking something inappropriate, like a smaller dog or cat.

I think this method is painless, doesn't induce fear in the dog, takes away it's power, and stops the behavior without introducing conflict with the handler.

I'm interested in opinions, both for and against this technique.

Hmmm.. could be a contentious issue, I suppose it would depend on the age of the 'pup' also the situation.

When Harry and Kaiser kicked off the first time, Harry was definitely still a pup - well under the year, but already insanely strong, and in hindsight, displaying the signs of instability, and because this was a new phenomenon to me, I waded in, grabbed Harry's half check, and twisted very hard, it actually made zero difference, because he was already in the zone, and my timing was way off.

Similarly, when our Boxer was an eighteen month old pup, my mother, again in hindsight, took my cousins, me and the dog to a playground, where he attacked a spaniel, she twisted the check until his eyes were bloodshot and her own hand bleeding with the intensity of the action, made no difference at all, if anything it made him more aggressive.

So in my experience of this, I didn't find it was at all effective, it just made the matter worse.

Are you talking about K9's and working military dogs, or dogs generally?? It will be interesting to see how this discussion develops!

I don't know what a half check or check are.

If it had no effect, you weren't doing it right. If done properly, a dog can not breathe, no matter how amped up it is.

I'm inquiring about puppies in general, working line or pets.

Just my OPINION, and MY opinion only...

Choking is a correction. In that light, I apply some general rules for corrections. Does the dog understand the proper behavior and what is expected? How hard is the dog, and how much correction can the dog take without it being traumatic? IMO, training age is a factor.

I've seen soft dogs shut down at just having their air taken away. I've seen a hard dog still refuse to out a ball while being hung with all four feet off of the ground. I don't really consider it the most effective correction for most dogs.

As with prongs and ecollars, it can be a polarizing issue. Some people are going to automaticaaly be averse to certain methods.

Half check is a webbing collar with a chain in the middle, I use them on the Pointers as they don't need much in the way of corrections on walks, I used them on the Boerboels as youngsters for the same reason, they are what you call choke chains, I have just got used to referring to them as 'checks' because utter the word 'choke' in some circles and folk get the vapors

"I will also use a choke-off if the puppy is attacking something inappropriate, like a smaller dog or cat."


So will I, although I don't use a "choke" regularly for any age dog.

What I mean bears no resemblance to what Tracey is describing. It is a calm lift-off, front feet only, until the pup stops fighting.

And that's the situation where I would use it on a pup .... determination to attack another dog in the house. (It happened last time to be a toy breed senior and a big pup. The big female pup would have damaged the toy female even in a quickly-stopped connection.)

Maybe look at it in context to what the dog is doing and is going to be used for. A dog like Fama has maybe had that possesivness built up with restraint from the toy almost like what your doing trying to out her.Maybe you have to hang her to get the ball back now? There's a purpose for that with what she does.

A puppy getting carried away with a smaller dog or cat isn't cause for choking them off. I understand taking away their air takes them out of drive enough to help them think clearly in some cases, but I think its more like where the head goes the body will follow. Its more of a control thing so you can show them whats expected. An interruption followed by whats correct.

If its something really dangerous, sure, whatever you have to do to stop it. But a puppy that doesn't understand certain boundries isn't that.

"I think its more like where the head goes the body will follow. Its more of a control thing so you can show them whats expected. An interruption followed by whats correct. "

That's a good description of what I meant, Steve.

Something else to think about. We generally have flat collars on a puppy. By the time you've taken air away with that, you've built added frustration and then given time for some panic. If there is something dangerous that needs to stop right now, be ready with the right equipment and a controlled situation. I don't like the odds of being able to fix anything with random corrections.

 Quote:

The definition of a choke-off in my book is taking a dog's air away by using a twisting motion on a correctly positioned flat collar (under the chin, tight behind the ears), until the dog lets go / calms down. I pair this action with a calm verbal correction.

This Michael Ellis video explains why this method produces effect exactly opposite to a willing release of the object.

 Quote:

I will use a choke-off to get the puppy to out something dangerous before training LEAVE IT is complete. I will also use a choke-off if the puppy is attacking something inappropriate, like a smaller dog or cat.

- here is another Michael Ellis video discussing why it is preferable to manage the puppy to keep them away from situations where a strong aversive would be required. Having to "use a choke-off regularly in certain stages of training, and for several behavioral issues" with a young puppy would indicate a training/management issue.