Candi said:


Thanks a lot for the warm welcome, Duane! I'm leaving our cyber friend, Solange, in Willie's extremely capable hands here

However, just as a self-exercise for my own edification, I decided to follow suit & sniff around the web to see what typical Kuvasz breeders are currently claiming about their dog-of-choice ... Honestly, I found nothing to dissuade me from my previously expressed viewpoint -- I noticed many statements which may be understood by "folks in the know" as having to be Read Between the Lines, so to speak:

"Wlll take advantage of owners who are inexperienced with LGB or who are not highly dog-savvy."

"Use of overbearing physical dominance can be dangerously counter-productive."

"A highly independent & free-thinking dog that is determined to make its own decisions, having been selectively bred to act on its own initiative."

"Dog-aggressive, food-aggressive, person-possessive, space-possessive."

"Females are usually Less difficult during Adolescence, but More difficult during Adulthood."

"Not easy-going, often unforgiving of disciplinary mistakes."

"Challenges authority."

"Will not excell at obedience."

"Treats unfamiliar situations or visitors as serious threats."

People with a background in high-drive working line dogs will get any veiled meaning in these kinds of disclaimers -- But an average pet owner, not so much...

Just for the record, I'm not speaking with Solange in mind here, merely carrying on the conversation for interest's sake

end quote

Duane said:

That's the beauty of the internet; you can find any opinion you seek. Owners and breeders also have this to say:

Prefers the company of children, with whom he is gentle, but ready and willing to play
http://www.starhavenkennel.com/htmlfiles/Kuvasz/kuvbreed.htm

Spending the time early on will bring the joys of a wonderful loving companion who will also be your best protector.
http://www.kuvasz.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=14

As a home companion Dixie was an unbelievably gentle, caring and concerned family member.
http://www.rebelridgekuvasz.com/RR_Rebel.html

http://www.kuvasz.info/kuvaszdigitaldog.htm


I could go on forever, but it's time to exercise my high-energy, sharp, reactive GSD.


end quote

Candi said:



I agree with you, so any research should include comparative evaluation of the most information available, particularly those possibly "red flag" items which may appear contradictory at first glance -- Here's an anecdote from my own childhood 60 years ago:

When I was in elementary school my family had Standard Dachshunds who were very far removed from being a LGB -- Our dogs were loving & gentle toward everyone, especially children, but if neighbor kids and I played in a rough & tumble way, my faithful & protective Doxies would grab those other children & pull them off me (luckily, torn clothes & minor scratches were the only harm done) ... But if we had owned 100 pound Akitas or Kuvaszok for example, the outcome could have been significantly different, just sayin'

end quote



and

 Quote: Candi Campbell

Just speaking of Akita lore, there are many horror stories from back in the day, about owners handing their 6 month old dog's leash to experienced instructors at reputable obedience schools (not "Petsmart" or "yank & crank") only to have the lesson demonstration result in a terrible biting incident

I think this shows one way breeds can be misunderstood, not just lesser known breeds, but maybe a lot of them. Candi is talking about how a Kuvasz would be raised and trained. Duane is jumping to the finished product, what the end result can be with a dog that would do better, raised differently then a GSD.

So Candi has two very different dogs in a Dobe and an Akita. They probably live very, very similar lives now and maybe seem to have the same temperaments. I think that comes from adapting what was done to the specifics of the breed along with their individual temperaments.

Looking from the outside, people would get the idea, hey that Akita likes to play fetch, I want one, never knowing why a dog born with no desire to play fetch learned to like it.

I think that comes from adapting what was done to the specifics of the breed along with their individual temperaments ....


"What was done" in raising and training ..... yes, good point .... "You too could have this, but only if you do all this."

And "only if you do all this" is often downplayed a tad by enthusiasts (or sellers).

Another example along those lines would be our Rott and English Setter. They behave identical in public, but the two breeds have nothing in common.

To add to Steve's comment...

Many of the references that I found, including the ones that I linked , had both the disclaimer type statements, similar to what Candi quoted, AND the endorsements that I quoted.

This one,
http://www.rebelridgekuvasz.com/RR_Rebel.html

describes all of their dogs individually, and you can easily find examples that support the positive and negative statements.

Therefore, using the example of the Kuvasz, as it has been the hot topic of late, it is easy to determine that the breed is predisposed, through centuries-old breeding practices, to a given set of behaviors and temperament, but through extensive socialization and active training, would be a good fit for a pet home. The problem is (and I think what set off alarm bells for Candi), the typical, lesser-experienced dog purchaser may tend to ignore the disclaimer type statements and see only the positive, in effect hearing only what they want to hear. You can tell them repeatedly about how much effort it will take, and they will nod in agreement, but never put the work in, and then one day end up with a big problem dog on their hands.

Not always the seller's fault. Case in point...

I met a lady a few months back at TD's kennel. She was 50ish and had owned pet dogs most of her life. She had always wanted a GSD, and she selected a pup from one of TD's Godzilla x Tasmanian Devil litters.

He explained to her, as well as anyone could in his very crude language, what she was in for, so she enrolled in his training regimen. Showed up religiously for every session for a couple of months, and she and the little guy seemed to be doing great.

Well, one day I go to his place to do some movie prep and he tells me she gave the pup back (and he doesn't give refunds, but doesn't turn his progeny away if they don't work out). The puppy had dove into a ditch. She tried to dry him with a towel, but the puppy thought he was finally going to get a fun game of tug, so he grabs it and starts pulling. She told TD that he was aggressive towards her and couldn't live with that.

 Quote: steve strom

I think this shows one way breeds can be misunderstood, not just lesser known breeds, but maybe a lot of them. Candi is talking about how a Kuvasz would be raised and trained. Duane is jumping to the finished product, what the end result can be with a dog that would do better, raised differently then a GSD.

So Candi has two very different dogs in a Dobe and an Akita. They probably live very, very similar lives now and maybe seem to have the same temperaments. I think that comes from adapting what was done to the specifics of the breed along with their individual temperaments.

Looking from the outside, people would get the idea, hey that Akita likes to play fetch, I want one, never knowing why a dog born with no desire to play fetch learned to like it.

Hi Steve

My Akita's attitude toward the Game of Fetch is:

Really ??? You THREW it, so YOU get it !!!

No prob & no surprise, since I came to Akita ownership from having had various sighthound breeds over a period of 45 years (Basenjis, Irish Wolfhounds, Whippets, Greyhounds & Borzoi) all of which were outstanding lure coursers & none of which would play fetch, LOL.

My son's Dobermans display very different temperament traits than my Akita -- Her inborn nature is aloof, dog-aggressive, human-dominant, independent, rebellious, self-oriented & self-possessed ... But thanks to tons of consistent Leerburg Training from the day I brought her home at 10 weeks of age, she is wonderfully mild-mannered & command-compliant In My Presence (however, if left to her own desires & devices, my Akita would ACT ON her innate instincts instead).

His Dobies, on the other hand, are a much "easier" proposition entirely -- They "want" to please us, while my Akita is "willing" to please me ... That difference in hardwired temperament traits may not be apparent to the casual observer when viewing their finished behavior vis-a-vis house rules & obedience, but the regulars here who know what I mean also know who you are

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I think that comes from adapting what was done to the specifics of the breed along with their individual temperaments ....


"What was done" in raising and training ..... yes, good point .... "You too could have this, but only if you do all this."

And "only if you do all this" is often downplayed a tad by enthusiasts (or sellers).

Connie: yes-Yes-YES