Moved from http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33428&page=2#379062



Hello Everyone!

I have a puppy that I am considering trying Schutzhund with and I'm trying to sort out the training advice I've been giving in companion puppy obedience classes with more Schutzhund specific training advice. I appreciate any advice and input. Right now I'm working a lot on socialization and below is the conventional training advice I've received.

Socializing with strange people - My dog naturally is standoffish with strangers. He doesn't bark or run from them, but just doesn't really care one way or the other about them. He is more focused on HIS people and could care less about strangers. Our puppy trainer recommends giving strangers treats to give him and then letting them pet him to help him become more friendly to strangers.

Socializing with strange dogs - He is doing well in puppy class and, after observing the pups playing will go up to a few chosen playmates (usually the bigger dogs there) and initiate play. His play manners seem very good. It's been recommended that we allow him to meet dogs that are well mannered, but avoid any who are roughhousing or seem to have bad manners.

I've already gone through the trainer's advice on teaching bite inhibition and essentially thrown out half of it. I also went ahead and ordered the set of puppy videos from here, including the one for 8 to 8mos and the power of playing tug, training with markers, and training with food.

Any thoughts? Thank you for your time!

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/07/2013 06:17 PM)
Edit reason: added "moved from"

In response to : "Tomorrow - Socialization at the outdoor farmer's market with tons of treats for strangers to give out .... Sunday - Short hike on the trails, at his pace, hoping to meet some friendly on-leash dogs and do a little socialization. Otherwise, bringing treats for strangers we meet"



I had replied

"You might want to get other POVs about turning strangers into treat dispensers ....

This isn't my socialization MO. I don't want my dogs to expect or look for treats from strangers.

Are you perhaps doing focus work at home, which would then be proofed (gradually) for change of venue and level of distraction?"

and


"For me, socialization is not strange-dog-meet-and-greet. In fact, I don't want that. I want my dog to be tolerant of and to pretty much ignore strange dogs. I want him to be non-reactive."


.... and then I suggested that other POVs should be sought.

All JMO!

My advice does not come from a schutzhund perspective. My dogs don't train for that. But you'll find plenty of great advice here from those that do excel in that sport.

But my preference is for dogs that ARE aloof and ignoring of all strangers--people and dogs.

I don't really want my dogs seeing strangers as treat dispensers. Or strange dogs as potential playmates. There's no real advantage to it (why make nice with people or dogs you'll never see again on the street?) Better in my way of thinking that all other people and dogs are just neutral objects in the world--neither good nor bad.

I think I may have found my own answers to my questions here - http://leerburg.com/socializepuppies.htm

A lot of this makes a lot of sense and it goes against most of the advice out there, which is of the opinion that the more people your dog meets who are treat dispensers...the better. We'd been trying that with our pup and while he's willing to take the treat, he's quick to duck back behind us after to avoid the petting. Strangers always go straight for petting him over the head, which he hates. (It doesn't help that his softest puppy fur is right there, behind his ears and on his neck.)

I feel like I need a new toolbox for this pup and like I need to relearn a lot of my usual training methods. One of the things I loved most about the Schutzhund practice I attended was the close bond between the handlers and dogs and the intense focus of the dogs on their handlers. I already have a puppy that is very focused on his family, to the exclusion of paying attention to anything else and I have enjoyed that. The problem was, I had a trainer telling me that this was wrong and something I needed to change.

I don't want him to fear strangers, but I also would like to foster that engagement with us.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

.... and then I suggested that other POVs should be sought.

All JMO!

Thank you, Connie, I appreciate the nudge! I think I'm going to change my weekend plans some and start watching those videos tonight as well.

I think I'm going to learn a lot from this dog! LOL!

 Quote: Karen Tunkel

The problem was, I had a trainer telling me that this was wrong and something I needed to change.

Your goals for the dog are VERY different from the average pet owner. If you want to continue classes you're going to have to be comfortable training your dog differently than the rest of the class including doing exactly what the trainer just said NOT to do.

I'm always upfront with trainers that I may not follow what the rest of the class is doing. I tell them that I will be using their class as a structured distraction. Some trainers aren't comfortable with that and generally you can tell by their reaction. I also ask about allowed equipment first thing. The PetSmart/PetCo trainers are bound to corporate rules but every other place I expect to hear "depends on the dog".

The next class I go to I will clarify ahead of time how much lecture there is. Tanner and I were both bored for the first 5 weeks of the last class we attended.

When a pet trainer teaches a down they don't care how the dog flops down as long as they are on the floor. Re-teaching this stuff later is much more difficult than teaching it correctly the first time.

 Quote: Karen Tunkel

I think I may have found my own answers to my questions here - http://leerburg.com/socializepuppies.htm

A lot of this makes a lot of sense and it goes against most of the advice out there, which is of the opinion that the more people your dog meets who are treat dispensers...the better. We'd been trying that with our pup and while he's willing to take the treat, he's quick to duck back behind us after to avoid the petting. Strangers always go straight for petting him over the head, which he hates. (It doesn't help that his softest puppy fur is right there, behind his ears and on his neck.)

I feel like I need a new toolbox for this pup and like I need to relearn a lot of my usual training methods. One of the things I loved most about the Schutzhund practice I attended was the close bond between the handlers and dogs and the intense focus of the dogs on their handlers. I already have a puppy that is very focused on his family, to the exclusion of paying attention to anything else and I have enjoyed that. The problem was, I had a trainer telling me that this was wrong and something I needed to change.

I don't want him to fear strangers, but I also would like to foster that engagement with us.

" .... while he's willing to take the treat, he's quick to duck back behind us after to avoid the petting."

I wouldn't let this happen, Schutzhund or not.

I want all my dogs to be neutral. I want (and worked at, and have) what Ed describes and what Tracy said. Non-reactive, neutral, confident, and focused on me.

This doesn't come from letting the dog be made uncomfortable by strangers OR from fostering the perception that strangers are treat dispensers. JMO!

And I don't place faith in the control strangers have over their dogs, regardless of how friendly they may look. I just don't want that one bad experience that can change a dog permanently.

All JMO!






" I also went ahead and ordered the set of puppy videos from here, including the one for 8 to 8mos and the power of playing tug, training with markers, and training with food."

Good for you. You're going to be happy forever that you learned marker training from the ground
up.


I'd watch 8 tp 8 and then Power of Markers first.

Power of Food and Power of Tug are next, after Power of Markers, in that order.

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

.... I'm always upfront with trainers that I may not follow what the rest of the class is doing. I tell them that I will be using their class as a structured distraction. Some trainers aren't comfortable with that and generally you can tell by their reaction. I also ask about allowed equipment first thing. The PetSmart/PetCo trainers are bound to corporate rules but every other place I expect to hear "depends on the dog".

The next class I go to I will clarify ahead of time how much lecture there is. Tanner and I were both bored for the first 5 weeks of the last class we attended.

When a pet trainer teaches a down they don't care how the dog flops down as long as they are on the floor. Re-teaching this stuff later is much more difficult than teaching it correctly the first time.

Lots of good points here!