Hi everyone,

I am new to posting so hope I do this right. I have been lurking in the distance forever, listening and learning. I have a one year old GSD and was planning on doing just obedience and agility with, she is from working lines. I have lower back problems and thought I would not beable to to SAR work, but through therapy my back is now doing great. So anyway I am hoping to start with a local SAR group and wanted your opinion on the best way to get my girl going. Since she is 12 months should I still start with FST or should I use TTD.
I am originally from British Columbia,Canada and now live in Minnesota. My brother worked with the RCMP on searches when I was younger, I wish I would have paid attention back then.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

Corinne

Maybe Old Earth Dog ,Wendy Wied or some of the other SAR folks are on here to give Corrine some pointers??

Corinne, FST is basically sport tracking for Schutzhund, AKC, etc. We teach our dogs air scent for SAR. Initially, it's very similar to TTD because the dog is pumped up by the victim with it's toy. The dog initally runs to the place it last saw the victim. Eventually, you will start the dog at the PLS without the dog seeing the victim leave. From there the command is given to search, find, etc.
At first, the owner/handler is the victim, because many puppies/young dogs don't have a strong desire to chase after a stranger. The victim runs a short distance. Only 20 or so ft for a young pup. The dog is turned loose with it's command ("search" for my dog). If it's a pup, the victim just lies in the grass and the pup runs to the victim and gets the reward. As the training progresses, the victim goes farther, but still while the dog watches the victim leave. The victim steps behind trees, hides in tall grass, etc, but STILL within a few feet of where the dog last saw him. Once the dog really understands the game, the victim will start to make the hiding a little more difficult.That's when most dogs will start to use their nose. Just build from there.
The type of alert you use is up to you and/or the team. I use a bark and hold type alert on live finds and cadaver. I liked a passive alert till I saw a Golden on another team do a belly flop on a really ripe body :eek. I prefer to have the alert pretty solid before the search work begins and that starts with building drive for the reward (kong for my dog). Let team member, strangers, etc play with the dog and it's reward. This is the start of the "victim loyalty" the dog will need to give it the desire to find and stay with someone other than the owner/handler. Does my gibberish make sence?

I also have both of ED's tapes on TTD and TTD #2. GREAT tapes. RCMP training methods.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Old earth dog Bob Scott:
The type of alert you use is up to you and/or the team. I use a bark and hold type alert on live finds and cadaver.

While a bark & hold alert is mandatory for FEMA (live find) disaster, a B&H alert on live find wilderness will result in failing a SAR mission ready test in California.

The point of SAR is to find & rescue people. Scaring the s**t out of them is not part of the deal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> A B&H alert could possibly cause the victim to flee and injure themselves. We are not talking about some young healthy schutzhund helper here, who knows what's coming. We're talking about 80 year old dementia patients, or 3 year old children, etc. People who may already be scared just from being lost. People who don't understand that the dog who ran up to them and is barking in their face isn't going to bite them.

Furthermore, a B&H alert on a search for a lost hunter could end up yielding a pretty useless alert. You won't have much barking to follow to lead you to the guy, if he has shot your dog dead.

None of these are issues when the victim is buried under rubble from a disaster.

Laura Sanborn

I'd rather be scared and found than scared and lost. . .and if a hunter shot my dog he better stay lost.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


In all seriousness, I think that you could find benefits for different types of alerts in different situations. . .it will all depend on who you have to certify with and their regulations.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
I'd rather be scared and found than scared and lost.

VC, somehow I just cannot imagine you being scared by a dog doing a B&H on you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Laura Sanborn

Our dogs are worked off lead, but we often work in heavy brush. Idealy, we keep the dogs within eyesight, but if the dog gets ahead and makes a find, passive alerts just wont do. I'm with VC on the scared and found idea. The hunter with a gun situation is always a possability. 80-90% of our work is cadaver/evidence recovery. For that, I still prefer a bark and hold type alert because of the, most times, heavy brush. My main concern is a dog that scratches or mouths the evidence.

I am not the voice of experience having only been on about a dozen searches as a ground pounder and probably about 6 months away from certifying my first SAR dog (dog #1 was a washout )

I think that if a wilderness dog is NOT also doing disaster a recall/refind alert is perferable to a bark and hold.

One -- scaring the beejeebers out of the typical lost child, hunter, or altzheimers victim who won't know to stay put, may be disoriented, and may attack my dog or run away.

Two -- In the mountains and hills around here sound does strange things and our human ears are NOT the greatest a pinpointing the source.

Now doing cadaver, you ARE usually close up so that would not be a problem but, I guess it depends on how much the dog ranges for wilderness and how out of sight they get.

Concerning starting trailing or runaways. I can only reflect the people I have talked with and worked with who feel that starting a dog in trailing for scentwork vs. air scent produces dog more capable of succesfully using both modes of location; ie dogs only run on air scent problems seem to have a harder transition to trailing when necessary than the other way around.

Concerning nailing the alert before getting serious with scent work. I have seen the problems firsthand with NOT doing this...unreliable dogs with weak alerts that fall apart when they are tired. IOW, yes, I do believe training the alert first is very important. It does not mean a damned thing if your dog can locate someone in 200 acres and not reliably tell you about it. I have learned some of this the hard way with dog #1 and am learning with dog #2 on new *different* problems the importance of not telling the dog to "show me" without a definitive alert...("Go find" is our command to search / show me is after the trained alert on a recall refind)

Another option for some would be a recall refind, but that's not an option with our team leader. :rolleyes: