Hello all:
I just wanted to get your opinions on training dogs without treats or toys as a motivation tool. Instead one use verbal commands praise and corrections if needed.
Would this work in schutzhund training? Here is a statement from a local trainer who uses this method as well as her link.

http://taketheleaddogtraining.com/

"I do not train with treats for many reasons. The first reason being, that dogs do not communicate with each other using food or bribes. They use body language and vocal cues. This is how I choose to train them because it is based on how they communicate naturally and it yields quality results".

Quote from that site:

"Most unwanted behaviors in dogs come from a lack of understanding and communication on our part as the human to tell them what we expect."

Big ditto!

In all my decades, the most important communication tool I've learned to date has been marker training.



"Instead one use verbal commands praise and corrections if needed."

Marker trainers use both.


IMO, there is no better method for communicating with precision and timing.

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

What surprises me is that it took so long to become front-and-center in the dog-training world and that there are still some holdouts (fewer all the time). This is JMO, of course.

It's been my main training M.O. for years now, and it will remain so. Can't really imagine why I'd ever train without markers again.

What is your opinion on just using praise as the only source of motivation vs using food drive and toy drive?

Do you know how marker training works? That is, the nuts-n-bolts of it?

The marker (a pre-loaded special word, or perhaps a clicker) signals to the dog "Correct! Reward coming!"

To charge that marker, I will say the word and reward. say the word and reward (or click and reward), until the dog hears it and looks for the reward. Then I know that the dog perceives that that sound means "reward coming" and the dog wants to make that sound happen.


Yes, I use praise. Of course! But you see how the tangible reward is used to connect that marker, which is my instant snapshot-communication, with "good stuff" in the mind of my dog?

Praise is great. Praise is terrific! Praise is always a big part of my training and my communication with my dog.

But praise isn't a precise snapshot of a piece of a command that I'm teaching.

JMO!


Have you seen marker work in action?

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=17

I use food, toys, and physical rewards. For some dogs, like my pit mix Bo, being rewarded with freedom of movement is just as awesome as pieces of bacon. Even my Malinois loves being allowed to move. Besides a ball, her favorite reward is being allowed to get up from her stay position and run.

Edited to add - One size does not fit all. I'm leery of 'trainers' who refuse to use every available option when it comes to rewards. If the dog will work for it enthusiastically, why refuse to use it? Why not phase out luring once the dog understands the desired behavior? Why not build drive for a ball so a dog will work for hours and save lives by finding bombs?

There are a few dogs that will work for praise only but I believe they aren't the normal thing. Some dogs will out and out tell you to.....buzz off!
No, they don't communicate with food or bribes but they do perform/work for food. That's basic to survival in all of nature.
The word "bribe" is where food training falls down. It's up to the handler to know when that line has been crosses.
Markers ROCK! Believe me, I've tried most everything else over the years. You can still add correction if needed but even when needed it will be much less the correction only.

 Quote: Christian Cruz

Hello all:
I just wanted to get your opinions on training dogs without treats or toys as a motivation tool. Instead one use verbal commands praise and corrections if needed.
Would this work in schutzhund training? Here is a statement from a local trainer who uses this method as well as her link.

http://taketheleaddogtraining.com/

"I do not train with treats for many reasons. The first reason being, that dogs do not communicate with each other using food or bribes. They use body language and vocal cues. This is how I choose to train them because it is based on how they communicate naturally and it yields quality results".

From the website:

"Physical communication
Positive: Physical praise will come in the form of petting and loving on your dog,
along with the verbal praise “yes”, for good behavior.
Negative: Physical corrections will come in many forms based on the tools we use. However, the main form will be the training collar used in sync with the verbal correction “No”."

"Chain Training Collar: Every dog that is enrolled in a program will be required to use a chain training collar. There is a right and wrong way to use this tool. I will teach you how to properly fit and use it so that you will not have to worry about anything.
Prong Collar: I will recommend a dog be upgraded to one of these if,
A: The dog is overly stubborn and has been unresponsive to the chain training collar.
B: If the owner is having a hard time controlling the dog or physically needs a little help to get that extra “umph” to make a good correction.


Tools that will NOT be used: Gentle Leader or Halti, retractable leashes (flexi lead), harnesses, martingales, or clickers."

The primary motivation for the dogs is to avoid corrections NOT to work for praise. Most dogs are not motivated all that much by praise and pats. I would not recommend using this trainer.

Why not make training something that the dog wants to do? Yes, there is the very small percentage of time that you have to step in and use a little compulsion to show the dog that they HAVE to do what you ask. But the other 95% of the time you and the dog can enjoy what you're doing.

Compulsion training is a double edged sword.

A soft dog can be ruined for life if corrections are executed incorrectly, too hard and with poor timing.

Hard dogs, if given corrections too often, and not firmly enough will learn to just take them as the price to get their way.

I use marker training, and corrections with my hard dog. But, marker training has created a dog that SELDOM needs to be corrected. She is a very eager and enthusiastic participant in training and everyday life because she enjoys the process and trusts me, not because she thinks she may get a correction and fears me.

However, I am not a professional trainer this is just my observation.

 Quote: Christian Cruz

Hello all:
I just wanted to get your opinions on training dogs without treats or toys as a motivation tool. Instead one use verbal commands praise and corrections if needed.
Would this work in schutzhund training? Here is a statement from a local trainer who uses this method as well as her link.

http://taketheleaddogtraining.com/

"I do not train with treats for many reasons. The first reason being, that dogs do not communicate with each other using food or bribes. They use body language and vocal cues. This is how I choose to train them because it is based on how they communicate naturally and it yields quality results".

Ahhh, read that trainers bio on her site - she is yet another one of the failures that the joke-of-a-school called National K9 produced.
I wouldn't let that trainer feed my dog, much less train it.

I looked up the school she went to and I was severely disappointed with the info they gave.