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 Quote: John Stowe

The timing part I have down. I used it to teach him stand which he is really good at, and to look at me, which he is still working on. He already knew sit and down, but I've had to reinforce those to teach stand.

1 - How do I improve speed? He sits great usually, he stands great, when it clicks to him what I want, but down is super sloppy. He ignores sometimes and I end up repeatedly pointing to the ground. He'll put one leg down and have one up.. He'll keep his elbows 2 inches off the ground. I won't click until both front elbows touch, but he still tries to cheat. Any ideas?

2 - I know from my last dog that I don't have the smartest breed in the world. Training Positive is a youtube channel from someone I believe to be pretty talented at clicker training. His GSD will touch, lick, scratch, move around on, or whatever to figure out what he has to do. Does this come with time? If you could see what Wyatt looks like after 1 minute of not getting what Im trying to teach him. Calm, head still, drifting off into space... eyes half closed, with 6 inch chains of drool coming out of both sides of his mouth. There is nothing going on in his brain other than he just had the best meal worth of treats he's ever had in his life.

John, are you luring the dog into position, or are you free-shaping?

http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php/130/Free_Shaping_vs_Luring/


That is, are you showing him with a treat-lure what the desired position is, or are you waiting for any kind of movement toward it and clicking?



What would you do if someone pointed at the ground? I'd look at the ground. I might look around for what the heck they are indicating. Is it food? Or what? )

"Smart breed" or not, marker training works. (Hint: Not only my GSD, but my senior adopted Pugs are marker-trained. )

I'm not in any way making mean jabs ..... I totally applaud you for seeing the value in a new thing and diving into it!


Is there any chance of you getting the Training with Food DVD? Or even the pre-Ellis basic "Power of Markers," which is pretty inexpensive? They can be viewed online as soon as you order, which is the best form of instant gratification!



Don't worry, if not. That's the best beginning, IMO ..... but we'll help you.

Any chance of posting a link to a short video clip of working on "down" with the dog?

one thing i'd like to add to the discussion is the importance of loading the marker correctly so that the " classical " conditioning takes root properly .

in the beginning , there should be no expectation on your part of any behaviour , either implied or directed . the idea is that the mark is some completely random , heretofore meaningless signal that will eventually come to mean that some good thing will follow . that then lays the foundation for the operant conditioning to be effective .

beyond that , remember that the performance of the desired behaviours , or moves in that direction if free shaping , triggers the movement to produce the reward . in other words , nothing happens ( no move to reward ) until the behaviour happens . note the difference though between luring into position using food , and marking / rewarding for a behavior requested .

with respect to the Training Positive dog ( i haven't seen it , but i will ) remember that that dog has any number of behaviours installed , and has that many to try to get his reward . you are just beginning and your dog has yet to figure out what the game is all about . add to that , your dog is at the very beginning of understanding " engagement " .

i think of the behaviours ( obedience ? ) as a means to develop the relationship with the dog .

have a realistic picture of what you think your dog will look like a week , a month , a year from now and as long as you are moving in that direction , it's all good .

A hungry dog is a focused dog.

I thought Tanner was not the smartest dog until I started to do some free-shaping with him. Once you both understand marker language throw some random item down and decide on him doing something with it. Put his paw on it, touch it with his nose, pick it up, pull it, push it, hop inside, whatever you and him can come up with! I've seen it called the Box Game because a lot of people use a box. It's a challenge but it's fun.

I'm going through the same problem with down with Tanner right now too. I've discovered that he will not do it off a verbal cue alone so we're working on that.

Tanner defaults to a staring contest if he's not getting a new behavior. I try to wait him out but he's way more patient than I am.

I should clarify some things. I've had Wyatt for 3 weeks, and he is a 5 year old American Bulldog. His previous owners have taught him sit, down, come, stay, and leave it. I think he may have been trained to come to his name as well. Sit, Come, and leave it, are decent. He will always stay when you tell him, but not until released.

He sits at my back door waiting to be invited inside or out, on his own, off leash. His previous owners did a great job with this.

Down is sloppy, if he's standing sometimes he'll sit, or give me these in between gestures.

If I told him to go lay down on his bed, which is in my room, next to me, it would be instant.

He either doesn't know or doesn't like to respond to: enough, drop it, heel.

I've been trying to fill in the gaps of what he knows and doesn't know, so I've been mainly luring. Free shaping gets no response he stands there perfectly relaxed, drooling.

To teach him to make eye contact, I held a tread between my eyes and clicked, repeat 10 times, then i held my fingers with no treat in the same spot. Then I did nothing and waited for him to look up in any way, then when he glanced at my eyes, then 1 second of eye contact, then slowly built up length. By the end he was staring me down while eating his treats. This is when I introduced his name. He'd look away for a sec Id call his name, eye contact. I repeated this about 10 times. This is now his default position. We start playing the game and he looks at me.
He wont look at me when I call his name though.

Stand was easier, but more confusing to him. I could not lure him up out of a sit position, so I had to lure him to step towards me at first, but I would click as soon as he was up. Then I only clicked when he stood but didn't walk towards me. This took about an hour. He knows stand by verbal cue alone now.

His prey drive is way way way higher than his food drive. My last bulldog was like this too. I could teach my last dog anything with a softball (tennis balls got stuck on his teeth). Wyatt atleast has a food drive, so Im hopeful.

good words david . . . the dog has to want what you have , and food is the natural one to take advantage of .

couple of observations from you have written john . . .

holding the treat up so he can see it and then clicking is not specifically marker training , that is bribing . the dog can see what he is working for , rather than working for the production of the reward . there is a subtle difference , but it is an important distinction .

also , when you use his name as the cue for eye contact , that name / word becomes the command .

sounds like you have " stand " figured , but you may have had an easier time of it by placing the dog in a " sit " , then moving forward into his space so he has to pop into a " stand " . that way you are marking / rewarding for getting into a " stand " , rather than " walking forward ".

I tought using food in your hand was luring. How else do you get them to follow your hand?

I don't quite agree 100% with what Ian typed about lure vs. bribe, as I understand what's stated. I may not be clear on what he's saying, though.

If you use the food to lure the dog's eyes to a spot, that to me is indeed luring. (The lure is faded as quickly as possible!) The same kind of lure might be used to guide the dog into a down.

A bribe might be, for example, when you display the treat as you give a command that the dog has learned.


But Ian may be saying that the food as lure must be faded right away or it does indeed become a bribe.




PS
Yes, John, you have already "named" the look-in-my-eyes command. As Ian says, "when you use his name as the cue for eye contact , that name / word becomes the command."


I'm thinking that I'm not a fan of using the dog's name as an entire command (with the one possible exception of the recall, and not everyone would endorse that, either).

I tried to point this out earlier, but Ian said it much better.

Just one complication (and there are others): The dog's name is used throughout the day.... and I don't want every use of the dog's name to mean "look in my eyes" (or any specific command). I want the dog's name to be just his name.

JMO!

"He will always stay when you tell him, but not until released. "

This just means that you will be gradually adding duration. I'd probably set that aside for right now, because duration is something that is s little trickier than the initial position.



PS
I don't use "stay," because when the position commands have been proofed and duration has been added gradually, then the dog remains in that position until released. But this isn't universal.