 corrections must be immediate ... discussion
#384578 - 10/17/2013 08:58 PM |
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The difference between a dog showing guilt and what Ed is talking about is correctiopns and timing. A dog that has been corrected for digging in the trash may show signs of avoidance when you come home and the bin is tipped over. However, the dog does not have the cognitive ability to understand that he will now be punished for digging in the garbage hours ago. For a dog to understand WHY he's being corrected, the timing has to be immediate.
I don't believe that. For example, I come home, and I see my Yorkie dodging around weird, tail tucked in, close to the ground. By that time I don't even know what happened, because she had an accident upstairs. I cannot possible show body language, because I don't know what happened yet. Then I go upstairs, see the problem, by then the dog is hiding. My Yorkie is 11, and I know she didn't do this on purpose. I don't punish her for it. The only time she got punished for this kind of behavior was as a puppy, and that is at least 10 years ago.
With that said, I believe the dog knows, it did something wrong, therefore, if punished, it can make the connection. Taking the dog back to the location of the problem, in this case the hole in the yard, and then correcting the dog (even if it is only verbal, or the handler being mad), will have an effect on the dog. |
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384581 - 10/17/2013 09:12 PM |
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I agree with Duane on this, I was just reading an article that explains it this way, I paraphrase, when the dog pee's on the floor and is brought to the puddle and told it is bad, she learns that a puddle on the floor is bad, but she doesn't connect the act of urinating as bad itself as bad, even though urinating itself created the puddle. Unless she's caught in the squat and corrected, then shell associate it. If another dog were to come in and urinate on the floor and leave, shed have the same reaction because the puddle itself is what she has learned is bad. I'm probably not explaining this as well as the article did and it is a small distinction but an important one.
My animals are not "like" family, they ARE family. |
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Jodi Moen ]
#384590 - 10/18/2013 07:34 AM |
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Like I'm sure many on this forum have experienced, our dogs will have a guilty look about them to indicate something is wrong, even if it's something not of their doing. To go back to the "scene of the crime" and scold or correct the dog might make the handler feel better that he/she did something to address it but I have never found it effective in changing the dog's behavior. The example Jodi provided was perfectly stated, the dog will associate the correction with the mess, not how the mess was caused.
Like many here, I learned with my dogs over time what works for them. When I run into a mess caused by the dog, the last thing I now want to do is make the dog fearful of me whenever she sees a mess. I will usually call the dog to me and simply talk to her, maybe pat her, and move on. The only time I can effectively correct her and modify her behavior is when she is in the act. Thankfully, those times are now extremely rare.
 Bailey
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384597 - 10/18/2013 11:10 AM |
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' When I hear people say “He knows he did something wrong while I was gone,” I shake my head and feel sorry for that poor dog because that dog owner is clueless.'
From Ed's article, will post a link later. Did I misunderstand? This is in regards to what I said in the other thread
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384598 - 10/18/2013 11:30 AM |
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"When I hear people say 'He knows he did something wrong while I was gone,' I shake my head and feel sorry for that poor dog because that dog owner is clueless."
The responses here are trying to explain to Michael that no, the dog does NOT "know he did something wrong while I was gone."
This is explained in Ed's articles (and in every authoritative book on dog psychology and behavior).
A correction must be administered immediately for it to be connected in the dog's mind with what the dog is doing.
Timing is crucial.
If you weren't right there to see the action, then (1) whack yourself upside the head because the dog had freedom s/he was not ready for (or, for a potty accident, was indoors when s/he needed to be outdoors), and (2) move on. You are too late to give any kind of meaningful correction.
A correction given after taking the dog to the scene of something that already happened is worse than useless.
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384601 - 10/18/2013 11:44 AM |
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"They don't know they've done a bad thing (especially if uu didn't catch them doing it), they read your body language and can tell you're mad and you might be taking it as her knowing .... "
Yes, correct.
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384608 - 10/18/2013 01:27 PM |
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"When I hear people say 'He knows he did something wrong while I was gone,' I shake my head and feel sorry for that poor dog because that dog owner is clueless."
The responses here are trying to explain to Michael that no, the dog does NOT "know he did something wrong while I was gone."
This is explained in Ed's articles (and in every authoritative book on dog psychology and behavior).
A correction must be administered immediately for it to be connected in the dog's mind with what the dog is doing.
Timing is crucial.
If you weren't right there to see the action, then (1) whack yourself upside the head because the dog had freedom s/he was not ready for (or, for a potty accident, was indoors when s/he needed to be outdoors), and (2) move on. You are too late to give any kind of meaningful correction.
A correction given after taking the dog to the scene of something that already happened is worse than useless.
I know that this thread is in response to Michael but I didn't want to reply in the original thread since you said this is OT
I guess I was responding to Duane
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384612 - 10/18/2013 01:33 PM |
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Duane and you were agreeing.
"However, the dog does not have the cognitive ability to understand that he will now be punished for digging in the garbage hours ago. For a dog to understand WHY he's being corrected, the timing has to be immediate."
"They don't know they've done a bad thing (especially if uu didn't catch them doing it), they read your body language and can tell you're mad and you might be taking it as her knowing .... "
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384616 - 10/18/2013 01:49 PM |
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Lol there's my reading comprehension.
I thought this part meant that Ed's example didn't apply to her situation and I thought it did 'The difference between a dog showing guilt and what Ed is saying...'
Sorry, misunderstood again
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Re: corrections must be immediate ... discussion
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#384623 - 10/18/2013 05:09 PM |
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Well, while I understand where you guys are coming from, and I have learned a lot from Ed's videos and podcasts, I still believe, that our dogs are sometimes smarter than we think.
But you are right, to play it save, especially, when you have more than one dog, you never know who did it, and you can't correct, if you didn't see it.
And then again, I come home, one dog was chewing on the pedal of my bicycle, one dog is wagging the tail, the other is putting the head down and looks guilty. I assume the one who did it,
knows it was the wrong thing to do.
I have to say, I am pretty lucky with my dogs, I had maybe 5 situations in 10 years, mostly as the dogs were younger, and knock on wood in the moment they are perfect, and I believe they are, because I followed many if not all of Ed's rules. And I really appreciate having him here with his forums, training videos, and all his tips and tricks! Thanks Ed!
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