Quote: Mara Jessup

 Quote: Natalie Rynda

 Quote: Mara Jessup

Natalie, Go get a cat and a goldfish. Try training them for 6 months as you train your dog. Then you might understand what I mean about dogs being hardwired to want to work with us. Or why don't you start a new thread and explain to the forum how dogs don't have any predisposition to work with a pack leader (i.e, us)

Mara, I said this before but it got lost in text. This is not against you personally, Duane felt the need to bring you into the conversation.

I have a cat that's hardwired to follow me and will cry by my door while I'm at work.
I have a turtle that's trained to eat out of her tank. Research that and see how many turtle keepers have that.

I still don't understand how this means that whales don't need corrections because they're not hardwired to work for us. Wouldn't it be the other way around?

I can't speak on pack leaders. All I know is that there are a lot of people that don't think dogs should be looked at from the wolves behavior. And therefore pack leaders don't apply.
I'm not sure on this yet so I can't say

No Natalie, you brought me into it when you said that I was off base without saying WHY! Duane just came in and explained why he thought you were wrong - which I happen to agree with!! (thanks Duane )

Give me scientific articles, give me your personal experience, give me SOMETHING besides just dismissing MY experience and knowledge.

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I will listen to experienced people about how to train my dog (still keeping in mind that experience doesn't mean they're right)

True, but I tend to assume that if someone has had a good track record of training dogs, then they're probably doing something right.

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but arguing about dogs being hardwired doesn't need experience, it needs reading.

You're wrong here. My first dog was a Border Collie. All she wanted to do was please me. Why? Because it was in her genes. No amount of reading could fully explain my dog's desire to work with me. Herding breeds (and working breeds) are bred to work with a person. Period. Go watch a young Border Collie naturally want to keep a flock of sheep to with a person person. See a young retriever bring a ball back to a person. That is what I mean about being hardwired to please. Here is a video of a young border collie just starting training http://vimeo.com/5237059 the pup very clearly wants to work in tandem with the handler.

We use other motivators because we ask them to do lots of stuff that isn't natural to them. So we build and shape their drives into what will work best for US. Theory is good, but honestly you can't really understand theory until you put it into practice. And yes, I've read the theory too. And written college papers linking dog training theory into practice.

My off base comment was towards you saying 'dogs ain't killer whales' and the 'correct the killer whale and be done with it' and the 'since a dog is hardwired to work with you corrections can be useful communication in the teaching process.' (So dogs are hardwired to work with us and because of that they can learn from corrections, I don't follow the connection. And whales are not hardwired and they don't need corrections because of that. Don't follow that either).

Maybe I should've been more specific but I did bold the part I was talking about and I didn't want to go pointing out pieces from your post to argue about.



I'm wrong about what? You had a few border collies and they happened to want to please you. That's all you can gather. Everything else will need reading if you want to be able to talk abt the millions dogs that you haven't seen.

If you can read about it then so can I.

I'm not dismissing anyone's experience and i'd like the same courtesy. I might not have the amount of experience people here have but that doesn't mean MY opinions can be dismissed purely because I don't have experience. Use arguments, don't use lack of experience as an argument (this is to Duane as well)

But once again, I misunderstood the way you used hardwired. I thought you meant that dogs want to please us.

From what I read that's not true. Dogs want to please themselves. Maybe some breeds want to please us to a certain degree but this can't be applied to all dogs.

Ed is one person that said it. Don't remember who else off hand.

Just curious, Natalie... what makes Ed's opinions valuable? If not experience, what is the currency that backs his advice?

Good morning Natalie.

It is a damp drizzly day in CNY. A good day for a walk along the Old Erie Canal, or to sit by a fire and sip some hot chocolate.

My experience with posts is that some times we all, all of us, get a bit out of sorts.

Four mutts arrayed around me, resting after their morning meal. Four different personalities. All GSDs. One is solicitous and one is on the other end of the spectrum and thinks the world is out of kilter if she isn't in charge. And one just wants to have peace in the kingdom. And the male is content to observe and pick his spots for what might pass for leadership. Or some thing like that.

Dogs are different. I don't think I've ever had mirrors. The objective of the trainer is to get the best results from each dog, building on the dog's strengths and working through its weaknesses. Or not. And in my case, to achieve levels where the dog seems content and alive while conforming to my rules.

I might note that half of the dogs I've had over the years were perfectly willing pets. Some of the others were at the high end of the spectrum and had more assertive personalities, and some were some where between pets and high end. Each required attention and time and patience.

I think dogs are dogs are dogs. You work with the dog you have to achieve objectives of behavior.

In truth I have not followed the whole thread. I'm not dismissing your posts or observations. I've learned a lot from being a lurker on the site. And by reading books, and by observing trainers over the years, and selecting techniques I like and eschewing those I don't like or approve of.

Some breeds have predispositions for certain traits. I won't get started on my subjective opinions of breeds or traits. Within a breed there are strengths and weaknesses demonstrated by each dog. Generalizations, like the ones I am making, are dangerous, and may strike negative chords in a reader but as many on this site, I've had a few mutts, not including fosters, and feel reasonably competent to express my opinions while respecting, for the most part, those expressed by others.

A dog is a dog is a dog, and ours to care for. We all have different approaches. I've worked with individuals I thought, based on the number of dogs they had over the years, would have a set of brains and was disappointed. And I've worked with novice owners who demonstrated a remarkable ability to grasp training concepts and use them effectively and consistently.

So. I have no idea what I was trying to say. Just haven't posted in awhile and thought I would.

My dog, my rules. Your dog, your rules. Good luck to us one and all.

 Quote: Natalie Rynda

My off base comment was towards you saying 'dogs ain't killer whales' and the 'correct the killer whale and be done with it' and the 'since a dog is hardwired to work with you corrections can be useful communication in the teaching process.' (So dogs are hardwired to work with us and because of that they can learn from corrections, I don't follow the connection. And whales are not hardwired and they don't need corrections because of that. Don't follow that either).

I'm wrong about what? You had a few border collies and they happened to want to please you. That's all you can gather. Everything else will need reading if you want to be able to talk abt the millions dogs that you haven't seen.

If you can read about it then so can I.

I'm not dismissing anyone's experience and i'd like the same courtesy. I might not have the amount of experience people here have but that doesn't mean MY opinions can be dismissed purely because I don't have experience. Use arguments, don't use lack of experience as an argument (this is to Duane as well)

Just what are you reading Natalie? Give us a link, give us the name of the book, give us SOMETHING.

Because in fact you are dismissing my experience. You're stating that I'm wrong because you read something somewhere and you don't follow the connection I'm making. Maybe that's my bad because I'm not communicating clear enough. Or there is a possibility that I have it right. I mean, I didn't follow math well at all, but that doesn't mean my teachers were wrong.

Should I start using names? Stanley Coren said so. Bob Bailey said so. Patricia McConnell said so. Susan Garrett said so. (BTW, these are all people who are considered experts in the dog training field, having researched, trained, competed with dogs on a high level and written well regarded books)

Do you know that is that makes humans label some breeds "more intelligent" than others? It's their desire to work with us. They've been selectively bred for their desire to work with people for thousands of years.

And yes, many dogs have an innate desire to please us. Not please as in "I'll do whatever you say" but please as in they want us to be happy.

We use a clicker/marker and rewards as a communication device to take the fullest advantage of these tendencies.

As far as the dogs I've had personal experience with, would it help if I added Poodles, Shih Tzus, labs, German Shepherds, mutts, Rotties, Malinios and Pit Bulls to the list?

And did you watch the video I posted? My experience with my 3 Border Collies is the norm for the breed. The breed is ridiculously trainable because they've been selectively bred to want to work with a person This is not just my personal opinion based on my 3 dogs.

Do most breeds work solely out of desire to please us? no, hence the need for external motivators. Do most dogs have some innate desire to please their pack leader? (which is most commonly humans) yes.

Good morning Mara,

So, you seem a bit angry. As I noted, I haven't followed this whole thread. And I am not picking a fight or taking a side.

I've had dogs and fosters that were not at all interested in making me happy. They were trainable and in time they tuned into the rules of the house. In time they were good pets. I'm not sure dogs understand the concept of making the owner happy.

I think we often confuse human concepts with dogs behavior. I don't think dogs so much have a desire to please us as to get right with the pack rules. They understand a kind word is good and worth a tail wag, and that a gruff word is not good and the pack leader is asserting leadership but I could be and likely am wrong.

In truth I am not comfortable with any assertions that imply a dog can reason in the same context as a human might reason. They are more likely to be conditioned in their responses either by the weight of pack behavior or the weight of training, among other influences. Again, my opinion.

The proof is in the pudding. If we are effective in whatever training technique we utilize, we will have the reward of a balanced and trained dog. If not, then the evidence will be the dog's behavior.

One thing I've learned over the years is that there is no one size fits all when it comes to training. Core techniques may form the beginning of training but adaptation to the temperament of the dog is often the difference between success or failure. Call it experience or luck.

Some have a knack for training and some trainers are not trainable. The dog is either the beneficiary or the loser in the equation.

So, I respectfully disagree with your final question and assertion 'Do most dogs have some innate desire to please their pack leader? (which is most commonly humans) yes.'

I don't think dogs have innate desires, with the exception of food and water and shelter. Probably just semantics. I think dogs adapt to conditions, in the broadest sense of the word. The command come, a treat on compliance, excited praise or marking, and a tail wag. Conditioning.

Two cents. Need coffee.

Mike, Natalie is officially turned over to you!

P.S. You may want to familiarize yourself with all of her threads. This could get interesting.

Hey Mike, just a touch of frustration coming through. And it did not have anything to do with what you said I'm pretty much refering to pack drive (the desire a dog has to be a part of a pack) which I think ranks up there with prey and reproduction drive. Dogs work together in a pack. Most are not natural leaders. They'll assume that role, but will relinquish it to a better leader. I suppose the "most" part of my statement was a bit broad. But some breeds (herding, retrieving) have been selectively bred to work in tandem with a person to accomplish a task. i.e., a natural retrieve on a lab or a young Border Collie who will naturally bring sheep to their handler. They have something in their genetic code that predisposes them to work with you. These are also the breeds that are often labeled as the "smartest" simply because they are more trainable. So what makes them more trainable? I propose that is stronger than average desire to work with and figure out what the human wants.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Just curious, Natalie... what makes Ed's opinions valuable? If not experience, what is the currency that backs his advice?

It IS experience. I don't know any of you and I 'know' him.

But you're both missing the point.