Hello - I'm a long time lurker. I originally came here for the great raw diet samples but stuck around to peek at the forums and what not. Thought I would come out of the shadows to get some advice on my approximately 16-month old, spayed female Australian Kelpie, who we adopted back in the first part of February. She was originally from a pound out of Northern California and brought into a cattle dog rescue so her background is not fully known. She is a typical Kelpie for the most part. Our 16 year old girl who passed away in December was a Kelpie/Cattle Dog cross so we are familiar with their quirks and the herding behavior. She gets along well with our other dog, a 6 year old male beagle - they love to play and the play seems to be appropriate.

Her biggest issue so far seems to be a general reactivity and nervousness on leash, mostly towards other dogs. She's better with dogs behind fences, worse with dogs on leash. She barks and lunges. She's been through basic obedience at a local training facility. Ironically, at class 2 is about where this reactivity started to rear it's ugly head. She was fine once in the ring and settled in but the going into and out of the facility was a nightmare. This was an all-positive facility, so we weren't allowed to use a choke, prong or anything like that. And the instructor didn't really have much advice for me except for to use management, i.e. just avoid situations entirely which is a little hard to do in a building full of triggers!

I've read Control Unleashed cover to cover, Scaredy Dog, Calming Signals, etc. and about every piece of material I can get my hands on about reactive dogs. Most seems to suggest that desensitizing via treating seems to work best and that leash corrections should not be used. I see and appreciate the value in building up positive feelings regarding triggers through counter conditioning. We've been doing it every single day on our walks/runs. Our problem is that this approach has not worked that well for my girl. It's had somewhat of an effect on "scary" people (typically large males) and bicyclists but not dogs. Typical to her breed, once she locks in on her trigger it is extremely difficult to break her focus without using some sort of leash correction. And there are times when she will actually get worse once the trigger is out of sight - I call it her "monkey noise" phase. I found out on accident a few weeks ago through my own stupidity that she doesn't seem to be afraid of dogs per say. I was in the middle of a walk on a trail when we came across a man walking a Sheltie. My girl started to react - rather than deal head on with the situation because of the tightness of the trail we took a U turn and went behind a tree. She had a harness on at the time and I thought I'd take the time to try to settle her down and straighten out her harness. Stepped on the end of the leash and she waited for the exact moment that my foot let up pressure and was gone, running after the man and the dog. Once she got up to them, she quickly sniffed the dog, realized I was nowhere around and ran back to me (she doesn't like me to be out of her sight normally). Needless to say, I now belt the leash to me for the added control. Live and learn.

Last week, we took her to a herding evaluation because we thought it might be helpful to get her into what she was bred for and to teach her some self-control at the same time. The instructor hooked her up to a rope leash and did a belly half hitch. She then gave her slack and started to walk towards the pen where the sheep were. Somewhat predictably, she made the decision to bark and lunge at the border collies over to the right and the half hitch had the effect of knocking her on her butt. After that, she walked to the pen without incident, did very well in the pen and we were able to walk back up to the dogs without incident, with me holding her this time without the half hitch. Her eyes and entire posture had softened, in a good way. I was even able to walk to our truck while my husband held her without any problems - she is little too attached to me at times.

So sorry for the length of this but I wanted to give some background. I guess my question is, do leash corrections seem appropriate in this case? I don't want to overdo it and I certainly don't want her to see other dogs negatively but I can't deny what I've seen with my own eyes. At home, she sit-stays for her food until released, sit-stays at all door openings until I give the ok, humans go through first, doesn't get into the car without permission, etc. We work on a bit of obedience every day no matter how busy we are. But the reactivity is a big one for us, because we live in a suburban neighborhood and she must behave around other dogs. Thank you for any input you have.

Just so I'm clear...when she lunged at the other dogs she initiated a self correction via the belly half hitch? I understand the thinking behind this, I've just never seen this method. I'd have to see it in person or video to determine if I like this or not. Seems it worked initially for you. Let us know what happens in the future. My guess is that with no belly half hitch your dog will react again to other dogs.

Yes that is essentially how it worked although the instructor also gave her a "No!" at that exact moment as well. I feel a little uncomfortable using the hitch myself as I'm not familiar with it and I don't want to injure my dog in the process. She is more of an old school type of trainer than what I encountered at the school I took her to. Her advice was to redirect my girl when she locked onto another dog by having her do some obedience, i.e. a sit stay or something like that. And then if she broke the sit stay, to do a leash correction so she wouldn't associate the correction with the dog, only with breaking the command. She said she prefers to use the half hitch during herding training because that way the dog's head isn't being directed away from the flock. But she also uses chokes and slip collar in other situations for her border collies. She didn't mention a prong. She is familiar with Kelpies and has raised and competed with them.

I have tried a sit-stay for her in the past. I have had decent results doing this with squirrels, birds, bicyclists and large men. But it has not worked with dogs yet - it seems that the key is getting her eyes off of the other dog and onto me and I don't know how to accomplish this before she goes over threshold without doing some sort of leash correction. She knows to look at me but she will only do it when another dog isn't the distraction.

 Quote: Shelli Kelley

She said she prefers to use the half hitch during herding training because that way the dog's head isn't being directed away from the flock. But she also uses chokes and slip collar in other situations for her border collies. She didn't mention a prong. She is familiar with Kelpies and has raised and competed with them.

This doesn't make sense to me. If the dog is targeting the other dogs then he is already directed away from the flock. Is this aggression for sure? My GSD will herd other dogs...hell, he'll herd anything that moves. If it's true dog aggression then discussing its remedies can be a bit touchy depending who you are talking to.

Has your dog actually tried to attack another dog?

No, she hasn't attacked another dog since we've had her. Sorry I didn't include that in my original posts but I had already written a novel. Herding thing maybe? My other Kelpie cross was completely non reactive so this is my first experience with this. Her barking and lunging sound pretty aggressive so I have admittedly hesitated bringing her around other dogs. I did bring her and the beagle to a local, small dog park once a few weeks ago at about 5:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning, after we did about a 3 mile run. There were no other dogs there and I have never seen a dog there before 8:00 a.m before. I'm not too comfortable letting her run around with other unknown dogs unleashed until she has had more training and the reactivity issue is under control. Wouldn't you know that someone showed up about 5:30 a.m. and before I get her and beagle boy leashed up and out of there, they let their dog in. What she did was run up to the dog and immediately start trying to herd it. The dog was much larger than her, a male (maybe a GSD mix) and pretty submissive. I got her out of there quickly as I didn't want her harassing this other dog and the owner (his first dog) was clearly uncomfortable with her pushy behavior, which is understandable. She didn't start barking until I got her on leash and behind the fenced in area where people take the leashes off and let the dogs in. According to the rescue, she was good with other dogs in her foster home but there wasn't a lot of on leash training before she came to us. Granted, we have only had her since February and we have not given her opportunity to interact a whole lot with other dogs, aside from our beagle who she she has been very good with. The rescue's school of thought was to do some of the Control Unleashed stuff, which is how I started addressing the issue. Maybe I just need to be more patient but it seems like I would see more improvement by now if the treat desensitization was going to work for her.

The missing factor in your desensitizing equation is distance. Based on what I'm reading, you are not applying enough distance to lower your dog's reactivity.

Corrections only teach the dog to contain his reactivity out of fear that he will be corrected. Corrections do nothing to help the dog overcome his reactivity. Desensitizing helps the dog deal with his stress, but you have to learn how to work outside of his reactive zone.

The main problem I see with a dog that tries to herd strange dogs is the potential for a fight. The other dogs may not take kindly to that type of interaction. With any luck it's just an OB problem.

I can totally see that too(regarding distance). I don't have a good idea of how to control that in my daily walks. Any suggestions on how to handle that? I have a big, fenced in backyard but I feel like I need to get her out there every day as well. She's not a super high drive Kelpie but she does need structured exercise. I'm also going to try to add another component. My game plan for continuing to desensitize her in a more structured way is to start bringing her back to the dog park, but only outside of it, a ways away. Perhaps to the local Petco too. That way I can have more control over the distance. Unfortunately, my neighborhood is also rife with very foolish owners that insist on letting their untrained dogs run loose wherever I go. I do sometimes just pile mine in the truck and drive them to different places just to get away.

That's what I am afraid of with the herding of strange dogs too. I feel like we were just lucky that the dog she was trying to herd happened to be pretty submissive. No more dog parks for now, for sure. Plus our beagle absolutely loves other dogs and I want it to stay that way.

You have two dogs already, they don't need any other "Friends". They just need to be happy in their current pack and learn to ignore, or have good manners around other strange dogs that they may happen to come across in life.

My best advice to you with this dog is to teach a solid recall. IMO It's the best OB command. It'll work in daily life as well as life in the herding pen when you need it. Sometimes it's the most difficult command but there is enough info on this site that you should be able to tailor make a training program to work for you. A recall under distraction is a fabulous tool. It's not easy, but it's fabulous.

Duane is on the right track BTW. It can be a delicate dance but it's doable.

Thank you - I will definitely take a look around the site. I know we haven't had her too long and I'm probably expecting too much too fast, but I really do want to help her become the best dog she can be. She's a very sweet girl with a lot of potential. And I do agree with them not needing friends; I'm not worried about them liking other dogs - I'm definitely just looking for decent manners. I'm active and my husband and I would like to take them out and about with us whenever possible. With beagle boy, it's just easier to have him liking other dogs a whole lot because he doesn't react to them as a result.