Moved here:

 Quote: Rob Maltese

I've started playing tug with my dog, we're currently learning the rules via Michael Ellis's system, the one he is struggling with is the bringing the toy immediately back, he wants to run away and avoid coming back, if I recall correctly to the video (which I'm watching again) Michael states not to use a leash to reel the dog in against his will - am I just not exciting enough?

Thanks Connie I knew you had my back! Haha

Actually, Rob, that may be the case. Or you might just be seeing a little bit of that possessiveness. Does he bring it to you after a few moments when he realizes that he needs you for the game? Do you nag him to bring it, or do you get more animated and challenge him to "come play with Daddy"?

The line is to keep him from running away. If you reel him in, the game has no value and is useless as a reward. He has to want to tug with you. Start closer, and bring him back in quickly to build desire.

BTW, Don't chase him, either. That just incites a game of keep away. Don't give up. You're on the right track.

Edited by Duane Hull (06/09/2014 09:02 PM)
Edit reason: eta

I learned the hard way early on when playing ball that chasing is a bad idea, thankfully I've broken that habit with the ball. I don't know if it's because it's new to him and he wants to take it and check it out, or what. Recently I haven't been letting go of the toy because I wanted to get an answer to this question before I ruin it all together.

Sometimes when I entice him a little more he will come running at me, then swerve left or right to dodge me.

Will he retrieve the tug? Will he retrieve other objects? Have you tried backchaining the retrieve, as Bob suggested?

You may have to build more foundation with the recall and retrieve. You need to build more desire for him to play with you. Lastly, he needs to learn that returning the toy extends the game instead of ending it.

Keep at it. You're learning a lot, and he will, too.

At this point the dog doesn't understand what you want.
His recall without a tug/toy/etc must be solid if you expect him to come to you.
Possessiveness, as Duane said, can play a big role.
Work with him in a hall way in the house where he has no choice but to come in to you.
DO NOT immediately lunge or grab for the tug. In fact you can mark when he gets to you and let him go STILL holding the tug.
He needs to learn that bringing it back doesn't necessarily mean your going to take it.
When you DO take it in this situation then AS SOON AS he outs the tug then mark and reward WITH the tug again.
Even a possessive dog will realize that bring it to you earns the right to play tug with you.
In that narrow hall way you have much more control where you don't need to be grabbing it all the time.
Distance can be your enemy.
Markers and back chaining is your friend!!

Thanks guys, I am learning a ton - in fact I'm learning an exceptional amount about my dog too and how he thinks, acts, and responds to different situations.

I think my first course of action is to continue with the game of tug and not so much letting him have it. I will definitely consider the hallway suggestion although I don't have any what I do have is my living room with only one way out. Now when you say don't lunge for the tug or grab the tug, so do I allow him to just run by me?

As for the recall - I've never tried to recall him while he has the tug in his mouth, for some reason I never thought I could as stupid as that sounds. When I do recall him when has the ball, sometimes he will bring the ball with him, other times he will drop what he's doing and just come sprinting. To me, either one is okay because the end result is what I want - him recalling quickly.

I will also try to become more animated when I play, I think I will give him some more "give" so to speak, when he tugs I will react like "ugh boy that was a strong pull! good job bug!" kind of deal. I also think that I've been making the tug sessions a bit too long, and a bit too intense - with that said the drop it command is absolutely no problem AT ALL. All movement stops, I say "drop it" and boom his mouth opens and he outs it - he'll look at me, then immediately back at the toy like "what's next dad!? do we get to keep playing!?" If I can get that possessiveness figured out, I think we'll be in really good standing. The only other concern for me, is my presentation - I've been doing some dry presentation (by dry I mean without the dog). I've been bit twice, first time I thought it was the dogs fault... Then I thought about it "Did I give him a clear enough presentation?" That's when I started focusing on the presentation, and I realized it needs work. Right now I've been doing the left, right, and front catch. The front catch I'm way too close to my body, the right catch is my best (I'm right side dominant) the left isn't terrible. I'm a little nervous to attempt the rear facing, or even the heeling reward style one. Within' time I think they'll come, I'm excited to use it as a reward because I have a very good feeling he will respond VERY well to it.

My friend is starting to learn with me, she is becoming extremely interested in marker training and recently we had a discussion as far as why I am not using the tug as a reward toy yet, then I explained the rules and she said "well you have all but that last one...just don't let him take the toy and run" I politely told her that the rules have to be learned and understood before one can use the tug as a reward.


Ps! Forgive the rambling, been at work since noon...and I'm working till 7am!

"Now when you say don't lunge for the tug or grab the tug, so do I allow him to just run by me"?

Thus the reason for a narrow hall way or something where the dog can't run by you.

You can easily use the tug as a reward just don't let the dog have it. Teach the out!
The idea behing rewarding with a tug isn't so much the dog getting the tug but the dog's interaction WITH you in the game of tug. That creates a huge bond.
When you allow the dog to run off with the tug then you are no longer an important piece of the training puzzle, He now has what he wants and that's the tug.
Once he realizes that it's the game and not the object things will rapidly change for you. You just have to work on the out.
One way that can work is to lock the tug against your leg while he has it. Your inactivity will start to bore him and he'll let go of the tug. IMMEDIATELY mark and reward with another game of tug. This can take a bit with some dogs but it's worth the wait. Each time will get shorter until he realizes he can make you play tug again.

Mod note:

Matt, this is really a new thread.

By the way, WELCOME!


Moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=34230&page=1#391692

And back to

 Quote: Bob Scott

"Now when you say don't lunge for the tug or grab the tug, so do I allow him to just run by me"?

Thus the reason for a narrow hall way or something where the dog can't run by you.

You can easily use the tug as a reward just don't let the dog have it. Teach the out!
The idea behing rewarding with a tug isn't so much the dog getting the tug but the dog's interaction WITH you in the game of tug. That creates a huge bond.
When you allow the dog to run off with the tug then you are no longer an important piece of the training puzzle, He now has what he wants and that's the tug.
Once he realizes that it's the game and not the object things will rapidly change for you. You just have to work on the out.
One way that can work is to lock the tug against your leg while he has it. Your inactivity will start to bore him and he'll let go of the tug. IMMEDIATELY mark and reward with another game of tug. This can take a bit with some dogs but it's worth the wait. Each time will get shorter until he realizes he can make you play tug again.