Hello all.
So here's my "problem", i have always been taught if you are going to use a dog in any sort of working environment that you should not neuter/spay. Ed wrote an article on this as well.
Here is a quote.

"Working dogs that are born with one testicle should be neutered but not until they are 2 years old. If these dogs are not neutered they run the risk of developing testicular cancer at about 5 years of age. Neutering before 2 years is going to effect the dogs fight drive and working ability. Neutering after 2 years is not going to effect the dogs working ability".

I have always heard something along the lines of what i posted above. It still leaves me with a question, at what age is a dogs prey drive fully developed? We all know that prey drive is one of the first things to determine in puppies (other than the standard tests). I have also been led to believe and see that a dogs prey drive can almost be "ruined" with excessive training? Is that true?

Alright now a different perspective.
If a dogs potential for maximum fight/defense drives aren't reached until they are roughly two years of age. Could the same be said regarding prey and hunt drives?
I only ask because it seems as though my nearly 15 month old un-neutered male seems to be getting a lot more focused and excited with hunting/ tracking persons or game.
So is this directly contributed to his training or the development of drives?

I hope this post was clear enough? If not i will do my best to clear anything up.

I will have a attempt at this, from an amateur;

We all know that prey drive is one of the first things to determine in puppies (other than the standard tests).

/is it?? if nerves aren't good I don't care about anything else.

I have also been led to believe and see that a dogs prey drive can almost be "ruined" with excessive training? Is that true?

/all drives can be ruined by an incompetent enough trainer, nothing special about prey drive, in fact o think prey drive is the most robust, they get chemically addicted to it, it's evolution - most hunts in the wild are unsuccessful.


Alright now a different perspective.
If a dogs potential for maximum fight/defense drives aren't reached until they are roughly two years of age. Could the same be said regarding prey and hunt drives?

/every dog is different, there are such things as sleepers, dogs that have never been allowed or exposed to prey drive, it never develops but typically can be awakened with good training.

I only ask because it seems as though my nearly 15 month old un-neutered male seems to be getting a lot more focused and excited with hunting/ tracking persons or game.
So is this directly contributed to his training or the development of drives?

/why "or" I think both and the training only brings out what is there at birth, nobody can add or take away from that but you sure can screw it up.

is it?? if nerves aren't good I don't care about anything else.

By standard test i of course meant nerves and the basics first and foremost then the more desirable traits we seek in working dogs.

I believe that drive is drive. You can help devolope it but if it isn't there it wont happen.

As to fight drive.
I believe true fight is genetic. Again you can develop what can look like true fight but under stress a dog will show it's true colors and revert to what it was born with.

I don't believe that neutering a dog has much to do with anything other then the desire to breed and male on male aggression.

Think it will break bad habits can be a big mistake, IMHO. Bad habits come from a lack of proper management of the dog.

Here's what I believe is a very good article on spay neuter.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Great article Bob. Yes, true fight drive is genetic i have been told that for years. So what I am seeing in my dog for instance is likely just him maturing/ proper training. With very little to do with him not being neutered. I am glad i haven't ever neutered or spayed one of my dogs. The more articles i read the better i feel about that decision

Took 6 months of looking to find my puppy with good nerves, prey drive, etc. that was under 300$ Unfortunately i believe i was naive to think he would grow to have a solid fight drive. Competitive schutzhund is out of the option. However he is a great little tracking dog. So Bob do you believe his prey/defense/fight drives are as matured as they will be from a genetic standpoint?
Given that the potential is there genetically?

IF it truly is there genetically then time and training can help bring it out. Many dogs are slow to mature to say that they are as good as it will get is impossible to say without knowing what development/training you've done with him.

As to Schutzhund/IPO not being his thing, there are many dogs that can be taught through prey to get titles in some bite sports as long as the dog views the whole thing as a fun game. A lot of clubs wont do that though.

At the same time there are a number of venues that can be done with a dog that has a good nose.

Schutzhund tracking can be done for it's own title without the OB and bite work.

AKC and UKC tracking are another choice. K9 nose Work being another.

ANY sport or activity where the dog uses it's nose can be done.

RE: Male on Male aggression. I've heard anecdotal experiences of more than a few people suggest that neutered males tend to be the dogs that are the aggressors to intact males.

 Quote: Bob Scott

As to Schutzhund/IPO not being his thing, there are many dogs that can be taught through prey to get titles in some bite sports as long as the dog views the whole thing as a fun game. A lot of clubs wont do that though.

I consider myself a purist in that i don't believe a dog solely working in prey should have the ability to compete in schutzhund trials.
Isn't schutzhund tracking foot step tracking i believe its called? I use the tracking thru drive method (Ttd) so would he still be able to compete in schutzhund tracking despite using adifferent style?

 Quote: Mara Jessup

RE: Male on Male aggression. I've heard anecdotal experiences of more than a few people suggest that neutered males tend to be the dogs that are the aggressors to intact males.

Hmmm, perhaps my guy is an oddball then? Haha
He used to be the aggressor 90% of the time. Now he's almost reliable around other males.

I wont disagree with that.

Yes, it's FST. The dog looses point for not keeping it's nose in the track and making sharp 90 degree corners.

AKC isn't quite as tough in the look for the dog to get from point a to point be, indicating on all articles and perfect corners aren't as critical.

How far away from that you are, I couldn't say for sure.

I will say that I started in SAR with my older GSD. He did Cadaver, land and boat and live find in addition to article search.

I had a hard time getting him to keep his nose down in Schutzhund because he would completely ignore the ground track and go directly to an article even if it was on another leg of the track simply because his default was to air scent if he lost the track.

We did finally get it figured out though.

When herding with him he would air scent if the stock wasn't in view.


Herding would be another neat venue if it's available to you.