In the past I have emailed Leerburg questions about their products that I still haven't received answers to, so I thought it would be quicker to just ask here. :-) Maybe they were idiot questions! Ha ha
Anyway, I am working on the power of training with food right now and am looking ahead to needing power of playing tug. My dog doesn't have much of a tug drive. It's a long story but I think I killed it as a pup. He loves to chase and catch but he won't actually tug with me. Will the tug video still be beneficial for me? Does it take over where food video left off.. ie- continuing shaping the heel, and maybe retrieve or out, etc? Or is it the same work as the food video but getting the dog down to minimal treats?

it goes into a lot of detail about the mechanics of using the tug correctly and also the out.

imo both the tug and the food dvd are just about marking a behaviour motivationally.

if yr dog's motivation is food, then I would use that.

there are separate and excellent videos for retrieve and heeling, they both cover focus and motivation.

you might want to reflect on why yr dog does not tug, ie genetics or training.

if training it is usually handlers being to overbearing, conflict with handler, long boring sessions, poor mechanics causing yr dog pain.

prolly worth you considering the what, how and why so you don't create further problems.

ETA there is an older video re drive and focus that is mainly using a ball, might work for a dog that likes a ball but won't tug. I am to uncoordinated to use a ball on a string effectively, harder to use than a tug imo.

jmo.

I think his problem is mostly my fault.
I had a gsd when I moved out of my parents house at age 18, 14 years ago. It was just us in a 1 bdrm apartment. We were VERY active together. I never trained him with treats. Now that I know more, I realize that he worked for the reward of engagement with me. He didn't know any other lifestyle. He was 100% obedient at all times. I had a friend with a dachshund, and she took her dog to a petco hotdog obedience school. Her dog was horrid and not well trained. I was very proud of the fact that my dog was different than hers.
My old gsd is the reason I have the guy I do now.
I bought my boy before discovering Leerburg. I'm ashamed to say that I bought the Koehler method book to start his training. After a couple of months I started noticing that he really wasn't responding well to training. He was minding but he was acting like he hated it, which is completely the opposite of my first gsd. So I stopped training, and started doing more research. At that same time I was heavily discouraging him from mouthing because I had a 5 year old at home. My method was half and half redirecting him with toys, and giving him a solid shove accompanied with a no. (Not a hit or hard enough to hurt him).
Luckily I have learned so much more since studying anything I can get my hands on at Leerburg, and before I did heavily permanent damage to his personality and potential. He seems to have forgiven me, 7 mos later. He acts like he enjoys training, and especially our tracking work. But I'm pretty sure I have affected his tug drive in my ignorance. He still has prey.. He loves to chase and engage, he just won't really play tug. Sometimes he will give me a couple of gentle tugs.
I understand that I messed up. I am just wondering my next step after the food DVD. I don't want to buy the tug DVD if it won't be useful.
p.s. I really relate to Frawley's articles on discovering how wrong he was about marker training. That is what made me sit up and pay attention.

Have you tried putting the tug on a rope to give it more distance from you? Or a rag on a rope? For some dogs that separates it enough from not being mouthy with a person that they will tug. Remember to quit while he still wants to go and don't be in a hurry to start outs.

I started my dog training interest with the Koehler book too. It's a good reference to keep. I wouldn't follow it word for word but there's some good stuff in there.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

ETA there is an older video re drive and focus that is mainly using a ball, might work for a dog that likes a ball but won't tug. I am to uncoordinated to use a ball on a string effectively, harder to use than a tug imo.

jmo.

You could do Flinks system entirely with a tug and Michael Ellis system completely with a ball on a string. The tool isn't the difference. The method is.

"I'm ashamed to say that I bought the Koehler method book to start his training. "

I would not be ashamed, the guy is more proven with more dogs of extreme characters than any other trainer that has yet lived.

sure people will jump in with specific things like how to stop hole digging method and mock it etc, I would not disagree, those bits are not the whole system.

Koehler was not interested in flashy, he trained for reliability. I have seen too many strong Koehler trained dogs that are rock solid in the obed to jump on the Koehler hater wagon. and unfortunately I have seen a lot of dogs get flipped, banned from clubs, euthed etc because trendy trainers can not do a dam thing with the dogs.

Koheler allegedly saved many dogs form death row and made them safe controllable pets or working dogs.

I'm not familiar with flinks.
My guy definitely prefers toys over treats. I have to do the food DVD exclusively with raw liver or it affects his motivation. I have been doing his focus work in intervals, training with liver, and a tug on a rope like you mentioned.:-) He prefers chasing and getting the tug by far and will occasionally give me some soft tugs back, which I always let him win.
Unfortunately, as Michael Ellis says, toys don't work very well for teaching luring.

here is the link;

http://leerburg.com/101e.htm

be advised, and this is just my free opinion so take it for what you paid for it.

flink vid (above link) is all/mostly about building possession for the ball.

the later stuff (eg Ellis) is the antithesis to that concept in a sense.

warnings are even made about the "poison of possession"

the earlier stuff does very few outs, and they are taught as a traumatic experience for the dog.

the later stuff the out is just an invitation to re-start the game.

that's jut how I would distinguish the fundamental differences between the two approaches.

hopefully others will chime in.

disclaimer: just my personal opinion

Thanks for the info on koehler.
Aries already knows sit, stay, down, etc... but I am starting over with the food DVD to hopefully get more pep, precision, & engagement in his execution of commands.
So do you think that because he does love toys, and will give me soft tugs for now, that we can work into the tug dvd? What would be the next step if not that one?

Thanks Peter, I will check it out.
I have done more research and am comfortable with Ellis, so I think I would prefer to stay with his method.