Posted here for lack of a better category. I am hoping to get the thoughts of our farm people, like Mara and Betty, our foster/pack people, like Tracy, Mike, and Connie, our experienced trainers, like Bob, Cathy, and Candi, and anyone else with an opinion on socialization of pets.

I recently watched a video on a site dedicated to observing the body language of dogs (the link failed when I tried to post it). It was a video of a cat, a dog, and a baby chick. The chick was walking around checking out the dog and cat in ignorant bliss. The cat sat very still, watching the chick with a fixed gaze and an occasional ear twitch. The cat never did acknowledge any of the chicks advances, just stared intently. The dog waffled between curiosity and restraint. He'd extend his muzzle and sniff, but when the chick approached, he'd give calming and proximity signals (such as whale eyes and lip licking). Most of the astute observers agreed on the observations, so my point is not to interpret the signals.

What occurred to me was that the initial socialization of the cat and dog to chicks (and possibly other small prey-type animals) was done at least partly with counter conditioning. Our favorite method of counter conditioning is desensitizing. Some folks include markers and food rewards. The video clearly shows that the counter conditioning was effective, regardless of the specific method. However, to the experienced eye, there was stress for the cat and especially the dog that the videographer was ignoring in the quest for a "cuteness" video.

My questions are,
"Is socialization between species so important that we are willing to sacrifice some comfort level so that everyone gets along?

Is this fair to the dog and the cat?"

I know that it may be a necessary evil for farmers and rescue people, and it was necessary for my dog and others to cope in a training club environment. Do you see it as no big deal and the dog gets over it?

Do you consider this a purely positive method, or would you take a P+ trainer to task over stressing the animals for the sake of an otherwise unnecessary interaction?

I think a little initial stress reaction isn't bad especially if it restricts itself to small thing like lip licking AS LONG AS the encounter ends with a neutral to positive reaction.

Fo example, a farm store near me has a pig in the back. Maverick was a little put off by it's strange noises and such but we did some fun OB next to it and by the time we left his body language had returned to normal. The pig was no longer a source of stress. It had retreated to background noise. I would have no qualms about putting him in proximity to that pig again.

I don't like people forcing a dog to deal with interactions that they aren't comfortable with if there's no focus on reducing that stress. And that doesn't mean just that the dog knows they have to follow commands. I'm looking for the dogs mental state to change.

I also think that with enough exposure to the chick (and positive reinforcement) that the stress reaction would eventually extinguish. Plenty of dogs live with chickens, and if they killed them, the dog wouldn't be kept around.

I don't think that creating a stress reaction is bad if it is helping the dog to deal with something that is a real part of his life. A dog that will be required to live with baby chicks running around will have to get past the stress to live with them. This isn't that different from the stress of a new human baby, or learning to have the dog's nails trimmed, or a hundred other things that initially cause stress--but desensitizing gets them over it, and all for the better. Done correctly, most dogs do "get over it" and can adapt to whatever the initial stressor is. Different dogs are required to live different lives. It's up to the human to spend the time to desensitize to the things that matter for the individual dog's success.

I would have a problem with stressing a dog unnecessarily (i.e. if this was only done for the sake of taking a cute picture.)

There are lots of things my dogs will never have to deal with in their lives--so I see no reason to desensitize them (and inflict the stress of this) just for the sake of it. They will never be required to ride a motorcycle, or share a room with a human baby (or a baby chick), be around firearms, horses, or pigs So I make no effort to expose them to these--or a thousand other--things. But they do have to live with people eating at sidewalk cafes, lots of sirens, and other city people with poorly behaved dogs on flexi-leads. So that's what we work on.

I also think that with enough exposure to the chick (and positive reinforcement) that the stress reaction would eventually extinguish. Plenty of dogs live with chickens, and if they killed them, the dog wouldn't be kept around.

I don't think that creating a stress reaction is bad if it is helping the dog to deal with something that is a real part of his life. A dog that will be required to live with baby chicks running around will have to get past the stress to live with them. This isn't that different from the stress of a new human baby, or learning to have the dog's nails trimmed, or a hundred other things that initially cause stress--but desensitizing gets them over it, and all for the better. Done correctly, most dogs do "get over it" and can adapt to whatever the initial stressor is. Different dogs are required to live different lives. It's up to the human to spend the time to desensitize to the things that matter for the individual dog's success.

I would have a problem with stressing a dog unnecessarily (i.e. if this was only done for the sake of taking a cute picture.)

There are lots of things my dogs will never have to deal with in their lives--so I see no reason to desensitize them (and inflict the stress of this) just for the sake of it. They will never be required to ride a motorcycle, or share a room with a human baby (or a baby chick), be around firearms, horses, or pigs So I make no effort to expose them to these--or a thousand other--things. But they do have to live with people eating at sidewalk cafes, lots of sirens, and other city people with poorly behaved dogs on flexi-leads. So that's what we work on.

I am in this process now with my 12 week old. We live on an acre and have ducks, chickens and rabbits. Great questions and I can't wait to see what others post as this will help me as well. I find ducks easier as they just waddle and ignore dog. The chickens jump and cluck at just being looked at.

IMO, stress is part of life. As Tracy said, there are many stressors that our dogs learn to cope with. If you shield them from all stress then you have a dog that can't cope. So yes, it's worth a certain amount of stress for animals to learn how to interact with other animals in many situations.

Daily exposure usually works on the farm. For instance, my dogs are very aware of the sheep at my folks house but ignore them unless told they can do otherwise.

Interesting that you should use chicks. My mom got some new ones this spring (she has a small laying flock) and kept them in her breezeway for the first couple weeks. Kolt's initial reaction to them? He jumped 3 ft back and barked with a "WTH?!?" look on his face. I calmly told him to go in the house.

Second time through he looked at them suspiciously.

Third time through he realized that there was feed in the tub with the chicks and stuck his nose in to get some.

After that he was fine with them and intensely curious but I made him watch from a distance so he wouldn't grab one of the squeaky balls of fluff in excitement.

The next weekend when I was there he was again totally cool with them.

The house cat totally hated the chicks. He avoided them big time. But honestly, it's just life that he has to deal with. He has to share his happy house with the dogs and the occasional lamb or chicks. You can't cater to one animal on the farm (well, we do but you probably get my just) - they all have to learn to live with one another. No one gets intentionally stressed out (or allowed to stress others out) but it happens and it's life. They adjust.

I figured out a workaround to post it. My apologies to non-FBers

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153219185786661

I guess my only real issue (as I said, I have to counter condition Sadie and she has to deal with stress) is that I don't see a practical purpose for this particular setup. It seems staged. My dog has to accept things, but I try to avoid situations where she would be unnecessarily uncomfortable. I try to remove stress from our relationship.

Thanks for the wonderfully astute replies (so far).

I'm not really bothered by the video. The dog and cat were obviously comfortable with each other and didn't really seem stressed out by the chick. They could have easily moved but chose to stay.

I get the personal aversion to staging "cutesy" animal videos. They're largely not my cup of tea and some are down right sad.

But on the flip side if this particular one was outside of a barn then it would have looked kinda natural. And if the chick was a new pet (the whole backyard chicken thing) then it looked like adding any new animal to the mix.

I do agree that I'm also not a fan if adding unnecessary stress. However, due to the nature of life for me right now, I focus more on teaching my dogs how to cope if possible since I can't control it all. If it's too much then I'll absolutely remove them from the situation and I certainly give them breaks. But otherwise I'm pretty thrilled if they focus on me and ignore x,y,z.

I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. I don't think that the dog and cat are stressed by the chick. In the last part of the clip, the dog and cat both give subtle hints that they've been trained not to harm or chase the little fella.

From the beginning, it looks to me like the dog and cat would rather be anywhere else, but they've been placed in a down-stay. JMO

I think that total avoidance of stress will only create serious problems when the dog actually experiences a really stressful situation.

It's no different then building distractions in obedience. You can only add what the dog can handle. That could be a dog seeing a cat from 100ft with very little reaction to an in your face cat that walks right up to the dog.

That happened to my dog Thunder when we were herding. He got slapped in the nose, drawing blood form a cat that walked up to HIM. for whatever reason his desire to chase cats was aimed only at that particular cat.


Duane, I think a cat in a down stay, without marker training would be enough to make them want to be anywhere else.


As to other critters on the farm I've said it in the past and chickens with their herky jerky movement and cackling are the absolute worst temtation for a dog.