Hi,

I'm looking for some help on the best way to teach the out on my now 12 month old dog. Since he's been a puppy we've played tug a lot and did a lot of the things Ed's videos discussed which were very helpful. However, along the way (and this is my fault) I didn't teach the out on his tug and bite toys for fear of ruining his drives. Again totally my fault.

I just got done watching Michael Ellis video, the power of playing tug with your dog, and he touched on the subject of what I have on my hands at the moment. He said that you don't want to play tug in a static fashion with a young dog, then demonstrated an older dog who he does play more static with because the dog is more advanced and what now.

Here's my problem. My 12 month old 91LB dog has tremendous drive and even as I puppy we noticed once he bites down he will not let go. Michaels video said when teaching the out stop tugging and hold the tug still after so the dog knows its time to stop. My challenge is I have a dog who is already conditioned and very strong so when I give the out and stop the tug, he continues to thrash his head and wont let go of it. I've tried some other tug materials as recommended such as fire house etc to no avail.

So what is the best way to proceed with teach him to out at this point? I appreciate any suggestions. Thank you.

Looking thru the posts it appears this forum is dead for protection sports. I think I'm the only new poster in 2015...

It's far from dead Jason. Less activity then there used to be but far from dead.

Is your dog going to be participating in a protection sport?

How I teach pets the out is that I just lock my hands on the tug directly on either side of their muzzle to prevent self-satisfying thrashing. I also try to use a harder tug. You can decide for yourself if you're liable to get bit doing that.

Another idea would be to teach a retrieve to hand but that won't lead to as nice a "spits it right out" out as being able to reward right away with the tug would.

The advice is good. You stop, stand tall, don't play.

If necessary, release the tug and walk away. If the dog brings the tug to you, either take the tug and repeat stop-stand-don't play. Use a release command.

Don't play until the dog gets it. No play until release compliance You have eight months of conditioning to overcome.

If you play tug on the dog's terms, you reward the dog, and it trains you.

Its your tug toy, not the dog's.

I use the stop and lock for the out.

You really NEED to lock up with as little movement possible till the dog gets bored/tired.

For rewarding the out I use markers.

I mark the out the give the dog another bite.

Works great because with markers the dog learns that releasing the tug only means it will come back to him as a reward.

When the dog does out be sure and don't move the tug quickly or the dog's drive will make it want to just grab at the tug again before it gets the marker.

This is good to know that there are still active folks here lol. I have been marking his behaviors as you indicate. The issue I have is even when I stop and lock keeping the tug against my thigh he starts growling and seems to get more intense and he wont stop until he wins the tug. I did try a few different tug materials, like firehose, jute, etc. Once he gets a grip on them he wont let go.

So as Mike said, I should probably do:
If necessary, release the tug and walk away. If the dog brings the tug to you, either take the tug and repeat stop-stand-don't play. Use a release command.

Don't play until the dog gets it. No play until release compliance You have eight months of conditioning to overcome.



And yes Cathy he will go for IPO 1 at proper age and depending on clubs I'd like to do some PSA with him.

oh an Cindy, yes I did get bit this morning, going close to his muzzle. It has no effect on him letting go or realizing the game is over no matter how still I hold it. Again a lot of this is my fault because as a puppy I got to know his threshold for when he was about to give up and right before that time, I would always let him win. Now he wont give in no matter what.

I think I'm going to try something this week with him. I'm going to give him one of his zogoflex chew toys, which he's not that interested in. I will out him, when he drops it, I'll mark it, then treat him. My thought is after a few days of this he will recognize the out and it may carry over to tug work. I thought I read somewhere or seen where they say don't overlap treats with outing. Food for thought here I guess.

Jason,

I think the advice offered by Mr. Scott is, as always, solid.

When all is said and done, the object is for the dog to want to do what you want it to do, and want to be positively recognized for its behavior by you.

Marking is the best way to recognize and 'reward' and reinforce the dog's compliance, and heap praise on it.

It can be tricky and hard to turn the dog 180 degrees when it has been, essentially, rewarded for what it is doing, and still have the dog enthusiastic,

The good news is that you have experience in conditioning the dog, so you can both be reconditioned together. Win, win.

Good advice Mike. I'll post my progress and or when I need more advice and I'm sure I'll need lots of it lol. Thank you.

Jason, I've see some hard core dogs with out problems hang on for 15-20 mins initially.

It's all about patience.....and maybe a bit of endurance on your part.