This is in regards to the Michael Ellis system dvd just so you know what approach I have been taking.

This has become worse recently but basically when marking and giving her the ball on string or throwing it or even tossing far (still as a reward) she runs back but stops short or runs by and keeps about 10 ft. away. IE she doesn't quite give it to me. I have been trying different "fixes" for this and haven't seen any improvements.

What I haven't tried for fear of correcting a fun behavior or correcting to early. I haven't attached leash to prong and used more leash pressure. I also haven't used e-collar either. For example could I throw it and use the recall command followed by e collar for non compliance. Or should I leave the recall command out of it as she should naturally run to me.

I am trying to balance a dog with lots of energy and wanting to use the chuck it or Frisbee to get her to run far but tempted to keep her on like a 20 ft long line and "force" her to come to me. I was trying the "if you come back to me" I will play tug and throw it again; but again no noticeable improvement.

Right now when she runs back if we don't step on long line we (family) wouldn't get it very fast from her.

Thanks

You will get some great advice from people more experienced that me but here's my $0.02.

First...I would ditch the idea of correcting. Play should be fun!

I had the same problem, he would zoom right by me or stop short and stare at me. That's when i realized I was asking too much from him. i hadn't taught him that it is fun to bring the ball back to me.

So I started from the beginning, and shaped the behavior of placing the ball in my hand.

STEPS:

• Put ball between us
  
• Mark and reward any movement or contact with the ball
  
• Increase criteria for the mark and reward (touching the ball, putting ball in mouth, picking ball up with mouth)
  
• Eventually I was only marking and rewarding when he picked it up and returned it to my hand.
  
• Then gradually add movement to the ball. Roll it slowly, mark and reward when he picked it up and brought it back.
  
• Build that up until I could toss the ball across the room and he would run and bring it back.
  
• Then we moved outside Short tosses, on leash. The leash was just to ensure he never had the opportunity to play keep away. If he did, I would have pulled him in and ended the session.
  
• If he got slightly distracted I would run backwards making kissy noises or patting my leg to get his attention back.
  
• Gradually built up distances on the toss until the long lead was too short.
  
• Once he was off lead, I used two balls. Rather waiting for him to bring it to my hand, I had him "out" and immediately threw the next ball. I think that helped him not be so possessive.
  

Side note: jackpot rewards are really helpful when raising the criteria.

I am sure there is a faster way to do it. It took me 3 indoor sessions and 3 outdoor sessions (3-5 min per session) and now we can play fetch in fairly high distraction areas and he will put the ball back in my hand reliable

Hope that helps! Good luck and hang in there. You will figure this out and love it.

Best,
Mike

Most common mistake in teaching retrieves... starting with too long a toss. What Mike describes is "back chaining", though many IPO trainers teach it a little differently.

When teaching the retrieve, I follow Bob Scott's protocol for back chaining, even if my dog will already retrieve a toy or ball. In IPO, the dog finishes the retrieve by holding the dumbbell until given a command to "out". Therefore, the first step is to teach the dog to take and hold the item. Once the dog establishes that it can return the item to hand, I start making some very short tosses, so short that the dog barely has to move to retrieve the item. Then we work on adding distance to the tosses.

If the dog already likes to retrieve, reward the retrieve with a mark and another toss, rather than a food reward. The dog will quickly develop enthusiasm for returning the item and getting another toss, and especially if you make it a game that you two play for fun. Also, use the opportunity to sharpen up the simple behaviors that make up the complex (entire) behavior. In other words, make him sit squarely before the mark, or add a fancy finish. Build speed in the return using verbal marks. Keep building on the base that you build through back chaining.

This type of retrieve training falls into the category of tossing the object and hoping for the best.

As Duane mentioned above it's probably the most common mistake in teaching retrieve to a dog without a huge natural drive to return the object.

The retrieve is simply restructuring the natural behavior of the wild canine to return to the pack/pups with food.

The "retriever" breeds have been bred to reinforce this genetic behavior yet most breeds have it or have to be taught.

Unless you have a natural retriever the dog really has no idea what you want or maybe it's just to possessive and has no intentions of bringing it back to you.

Tossing it to far puts it out of what I call "my area of influence" over the dog.

Dog has the ball and your way over there so what's the point.

If you toss something the dog really wants then why should it bring it back to you.

It now has what it wants and your value in the game goes down.

Personally I use a game of tug as the reward AFTER back chaining with a piece of pvc, a wooden dowel, etc.

The retrieve is then taught as a means to a reward (a game of tug) and not a means to an end.

The retrieve dumbell shouldn't have any great value. It should be neither a toy NOR a reward.

It's a behavior that earns a reward......with back chaining of course.

It should be taught as a behavior that is worthy of a reward.

Hey bob,

Do you see a difference in the retrieve of a dumbbell vs a chuck it or Frisbee?

I look at, and want the dumbell to be a consistently upbeat yet formal exercise so I train for that.

In otherwords IF I toss a dumbell I want a formal go out, return to a front sit and hold it till I command "out".

With that the dog is expected to hold the sit until I give another command or a release.

That all still earns a reward randomly for any one of the behaviors involved in the exercise.

With the Chuck it, a ball, a stick, tug,etc I don't ask for formal sits, etc as long as they bring it straight to me.

I see the excitement for the dumbell as excitement because it's a means to fun and games.

Those are self rewarding because I don't ask for or expect any formality with those items.

Both my dogs will still continue trying to push those items in my hand until released because they are all still fun.

Formal or informal they all lead to having fun.

With past competition dogs that were forced trained the retrieve they were excellent with the "formal" retrieves but back then I didn't see the same excitement as in a game of ball or tug.

No difference today!

Does that make sense?

yep. thanks!