Hey everyone.

I'm a relatively new GSD owner (our boy's 6 months old now), and like many others I've quickly become fascinated with the breed.

As I've been learning more about GSD's I've been saddened to see a lot of information about the poor health conditions of american line shepherds (thinking primarily of HD & DM, but there are other issues too). It's also been alarming to me to read that some genetic problems (DM as an example) can't reliably be determined, and therefore can't really be prevented (and even if they could be, there are concerns from some breeders that the result of such selective breeding could cause more/bigger problems than it solves).

So I have a general question. All other things being equal, is there a better chance of having healthy pups if a GSD was cross-bred with a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd vs. another GSD? I've spent some time looking into this but haven't seen much information about it.

Thanks in advance.

It's not an uncommon cross but knowing what your doing and a serious knowledge of both lines lines of both breeds are still the bottom line when ANY sort of breeding goes on.

I say leave the breeding to those who truly understand.

I have seen a number of these crosses. A couple were good but others seem to end up being a culmination of the worst possible traits of the parents.

One was so handler aggressive it was ridiculous. And that was in the hands of a very knowledgeable handler. Watched him try to take him out as few times..just because he felt like it.....not because the handler did anything to piss the dog off.

Like Bob said...better know what you are doing when you play with breeding.

Interesting about the different temperaments that cross breeding GSD's & Mal's can produce. Thanks for mentioning that, Anne.

Let me ask a different question. Why are american GSD's in such a bad way these days? I understand some traits (angulated hips resulting in the "sloped back" for example) have been produced on purpose to better conform to AKC show standards. But what about the genetic issues?

I would think that we have enough GSD's in the USA to supply a wide enough gene pool to avoid genetic problems, and yet the breed seems plagued with genetic problems.

How has this happened?

The GSD doesn't conform better to the standards.

In the dog show world, those "standards have been set for yrs but breeders can be fickled and breeders breed to the big show winners standards be damned.

Genetic problems exist in both show and breeding lines.

To eliminate these problems would mean that ALL breeders would have to start over from scratch.

At least the working lines in most any breed still produce functional dogs.

Of ALL the different GSDs in the world, IMNSHO, the American show line is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to physical deformities.

 Quote: Joel Smith

I would think that we have enough GSD's in the USA to supply a wide enough gene pool to avoid genetic problems, and yet the breed seems plagued with genetic problems.

How has this happened?

It happens because you can't uniformly or unilaterally apply ethics. You are always going to have breeders who will overlook certain concerns to selectively breed for their own purposes. In your own OP, you put forth the proposition of an experimental cross "just to see..."

Think about this... Who benefits from the creation of the Labradoodle? Labrador enthusiasts and their breed? What about Poodles? Nope? Neither. The biggest winners in the creation of that cross were the people selling the mixed breed puppies. Health concerns be damned.

Thanks for the responses. I really am interested in understanding this better.

I am not at all a fan of "designer" dogs, which I see as dogs bred almost exclusively for looks (as the name implies). These are simply living fashion accessories.

What I'm asking about is breeding solid (nerves & temperament), healthy (genetically & generally) shepherds. The opposite of designer dogs.

What spurred my OP was talking to a breeder in the area who breeds GSD's, Mal's and Dutchies for the purpose of producing solid & healthy dogs (some of working temperament, some for pets). He claims to have 30+ experience with dog training & breeding, and has seemingly chosen his breeding stock carefully. His website says he started this because he was heart-broken from seeing so many GSD's start to fall apart around 8 years old.

It seems like this a a responsible breeder who is working in the spirit of the Dutch KNPV breeders; focused on breeding good dogs independent from FCI/AKC breed standards.

I know there's a lot of issues involved here, but what I'm specifically wondering is if this style of cross-breeding (done well) would truly have better odds of producing better dogs than pure-breeding GSD's.

Breeding with the best dogs & lines can still be a crap shoot to some degree. No guarantees that every pup will be a good dog..never mind a really good or great dog.

Genetics can be a very tricky thing..even when you think you have all your bases covered. IMHO adding further unknowns into the mix ups the risks. Does it outweigh the gains. I guess if you have no problem culling a litter if things go terribly south...it's not. MANY,MANY litters have been culled through the years when the 'experimenting' did not go as planned. And many questionable temperaments pups have been sold ...many only to end up put down later when the 'problems' surfaced with greater intensity with age. Because God forbid a breeder doesn't make any money on a breeding. (This directed at the sub par breeders that like to 'experiment' & still make a buck..not the many ethical breeders.)

Hi Joel,

I would encourage you to read the following book #Born to Win, Breed to succeed# by Patricia Craige Trotter. This book highlights the complexity in breeding and the challenges that a real ethical breeder must overcome to improve its breed.

As others said, the making of a new cross-breed does not benefit the pure breed. It does not even benefit to the cross-breed itself.

Regarding the GSD, there are already many breeders working to maintain/improve the breed. Those are working line. You will not find these dogs in dog shows but they are the real winners.

Part of the benefit of going to a good breeder with established lines is that over time their litters become more and more consistent. When you go to cross breeding you throw all that out the window. It's impossible to predict what the litter will be like. They could get the best of both worlds or the worst.

Look at the Labradoodles. I've seen some that are dumber than stumps and some that are definitely poodle intelligence level. I've seen some that shed like crazy or mat when you look at them wrong because they got the worst combo of coat genetics and some that have a lovely relatively low maintenance coat because they got the best combo of coat genetics.