I received Ed's "Bite Training for Puppies" video this week. Watched it yesterday and have a question. Do I work on a firm grip and THEN work on the counter or train both at the same time? Thanks.

Walt

I worked both at the same time. In the begining when the dog counters release the prey item. As the training progresses make the dog hold longer and counter more to win. The idea is to get the dog to make a full bite and work to get a firmer grip and fuller bite to win. The result is a dog that makes a full bite and knows how to get a fuller bite if it misses the first go at it. In addition the dog doesn't let go for anything.

I haven't seen the tape, but if it recommends a counter as in a rebite, that's not a very common goal in bite training anymore. Asking the dog to rebite (counter) in order to win used to be taught - you see it recommended in Raiser's old book- but when judging became so super strict about grips being full, hard, AND ABSOLUTELY CALM, rebiting became incompatible with the performance standards. All dogs need to learn how to correct their grip if they don't get an initially full one; but to encourage rebiting or to teach them that rebiting will win is contrary to today's goals. However, if you mean counter as in pulling assertively to control the fight or pushing into the man for the same purpose, that's a different story. But countering as in rebiting to win is no longer taught in the sport. In fact, when teaching a youngster to deepen an initially shallow or slipping grip, it is now taught to ALWAYS give a hard pull against the dog before allowing him to win, so he learns that he won for holding it full and hard against the fight, NOT for simply adjusting his grip, becuz you don't want the dog to associate changing his grip with winning or he will offer it more and more, which isn't desirable.

Thanks for the replies. Which theory is better for PP dogs. I'm gonna lay a foundation in Sch. but PP is my ultimate aim for the dog. I don't care about setting any Sch. records so I'm willing to sacrifice a little form to make an ultimately better PP dog if that's the case.

SchH3FH2,

I don't mean to get "semantical" with you.. but the way I remember Helmet Raiser's definition of a "counter" was any type of behavior that was forward and controlling.. growling, shaking, rebiting, pushing in, etc..

now I agree with you that a rebite in a SchH trial would lose points, but the other behaviors should be allowable.

but then again, what do I know? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, he did include those other behaviors as well, but I've always gotten the impression from previous posts that Leerburg's video is addressing more the rebiting. Growling and shaking are not desirable behaviors in Sch either. "Off" breeds like Rotts and Bouvs don't seem to ever get penalized for it, but judges definitely don't like to see GSDs doing it.

Re-bites are great for training but be careful when and how often you do it, as the end result can be a chewy dog that thinks this is how he wins the fight.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Yeah, he did include those other behaviors as well, but I've always gotten the impression from previous posts that Leerburg's video is addressing more the rebiting. Growling and shaking are not desirable behaviors in Sch either. "Off" breeds like Rotts and Bouvs don't seem to ever get penalized for it, but judges definitely don't like to see GSDs doing it.

True... it does seem that the bulk of people that use the term "counter" are referring to rebites...

the "off breeds" IMO shouldn't be penalized for growling and shaking, as it is in their genetic makeup oftentimes.. (at least I know it is in ROttweilers)..

but I am with you regarding the GSDs

Hey! Who are you calling an "off" breed?!!? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who? Well an "off" breed is anything other than a German Shepherd Dog silly.

I would have thought you off breed twerps would have learned this by now. Every canine on the planet is inferior to the GSD. They all suck. . .its that simple.

You all should just give up and go take those pets home where they can sit on the porch and LOOK tough.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />