I have been doing schtzhund for about two and half years now.... I am going to open some cans of worms.... I am curious what do you think of trainers taking their anger on their own dogs? Especially if a trainer assumed that the dog knows what he is supposed to do, he didn't do what the trainer says. The dog gets corrected, but when he corrected the dog. It might be a bit too much where the dog showing lots of "submissive behaviors." The dog will show its belly and try to get smaller.. It seems to bother me when I saw how the dog responded and how the trainer handled the situation. Well, I can see that he is trying to teach the dog to do what he says, but I think his dog is confused.....

Well, I do get frustrated with my own dog, but I reminded myself to never take out my anger on my dog.... When I feel frustrated with my dog, I just stop what I'm doing and taking a break.... If I need to correct my dog, I always do it without anger.

When someone corrects a dog for being wrong, often time I see trainers tend to correct their dogs with "anger." I could see some dogs simply do not respect their handlers... Correction should be done without being anger- No hard feelings between the dog and the trainer... It should be clear and understood. Never correct a dog that does not understand what it wants.

I feel as you do. I did SchH for a few years with 2 of my dogs. I still train my dogs to that level of discipline even though I no longer am involved in the sport.

If the dog isn't doing what you have asked (after training that behavior) then there is something wrong....I have not fully trained that behavior, I have confused my dog in some way in my command for that behavior or maybe the distraction level is too high for him to respond to my command. In any case ALL of the above " possible reasons" for his lack of proper response is MY FAULT not the dogs. No correction, & there are times that they are sometimes needed, should ever be done in anger.

If I or my dog gets frustrated & I loose my patience during a training session...then it us time stop & take a break or totally quit for the day. Play with the dog or put the dog up.

I also think that if what you described took place at a training club...there TD should stop the session. Trainer should be called on his lack of proper behavior in training & if he repeats the behavior...should be possibly considered dismissed from the club.

I feel sorry for the dog he is in a no win situation. I personally Don't care for soft dogs..though one of my 4 WL GSDs that I have had is. He can also be very excitable to the point of being hectic & has really taught me to think outside the box for some of his training. He is also probably in some ways one of the best trained one's I've had. Some of that is from being the benefit of my greater training experience with very high drive dogs (although I have owned other very well trained PETS ) that enabled me to have many more tools in the toolbox. I will also add that the dogs that are harder to train, for whatever reason, are the ones that teach us the most.

The club I belonged to didn't allow physical corrections of any sort other then loss of reward.

I've personally seen other clubs where the dog took the brunt of trainer or handler anger.

Unfortunately not uncommon in many forms of dog training even with high level trainers.

When the people seeing this put up with it and stay silent it's just the same as agreeing to it.

There is a HUGE difference between a physical correction and punishment.

Corrections let the dog know it didn't perform as asked and it should fit the level of the refusal, etc.

As Lindsay said
"Never correct a dog that does not understand what it wants".

Punishment is nothing more then handler/trainer taking out frustrations on the dog with physical aggression on the handlers part.

I wasn't the easiest on my dogs in my early yrs of training but Markers gave me a whole new insight to training that helped me tremendously.

Quote Bob: "When the people seeing this put up with it and stay silent it's just the same as agreeing to it."

Absolutely. I can not bear to see dogs being physically punished and then I simply can not keep my mouth shut. But lots of people react then awfully, shout at me I should not interfere with something what doesn't concern me. But, damned, it does concern me.

When someone hits a child, should I then look away? And think: This is not my child, it doesn't concern me. This is so crazily wrong.

I myself have already gone crazy with my Pits when they play and it suddenly escalates to aggression. Then it can happen that in my first fright I shout at them. Physical punishment only happened with the water hose in order to give them a little shock, to avoid a fight. This too is probably not the right behavior. It happens in a moment, when I don't know how to cope with the situation correctly. To hit a dog I can not imagine.

I can see the results of such a behavior daily with my brain damaged Charlie, the one who must have recieved blows on his head. He has confidence, he comes running towards me and pushes himself on me, whenever he can. But if I make unintentionally a too sudden movement, especially, when I'm curved over him, then he is still frightened and cowers. I ask myself what that dog must have gone through.

In training sessions I'm never impatient, because I know, this can only do harm. I break them up while we are still having fun. I think we shouldn't wait until we or/and the dogs are showing signs of boredom, anger .. whatsoever.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Unfortunately not uncommon in many forms of dog training even with high level trainers.

When the people seeing this put up with it and stay silent it's just the same as agreeing to it.

Oh yeah! What you said is true... I agreed by saying nothing because I don't have any ways to tell him. I don't talk, and I do miss out many conversations with people. Most club members that I trained with don't know american sign language. When we train, I do my own creative ways how to communicate with others. Some understood, and some don't. Often time they watch and talk with each other. They do help and take their time to write things down. Explaining the rule or whatsoever. (Deaf)

Also, I don't think people take me seriously because they often don't.

All to often I've seen this.

One of my daughters is a sign interpreter at one of the major schools here.

She gets so pissed off when comments are made simply because some people wont make the effort to understand and she has no hesitation of telling them so.

I've grown up with an uncle that lost his legs at 6yrs old, another uncle that was crippled due to polio, a niece with both autism and cerebral palsy.

This was/is a regular part of life to me and my family.

Just regular people!

Some "regular" people can't see someone as fully valid just because he/she has a deficiency (don't really like that word) whatever it might be. They are blind to the fact, that they themselves are suffering from the biggest deficiency at all: The idea that the norm is the highest and someone with a deviation from it can not be regarded as wholesome person.

If being together with people with disabilities as you describe, Bob, was a regular part of your life, then you have learned very early that this makes not less value people out of them. They have a handicap but are fully normal people.

Such attitudes and such self-overestimation drive me crazy.

Well said!

There are no bad dogs, only bad trainers. Personally I would not be a part of any person/club that doesn't know how to train the dog in front of them or read a dog and what they are trying to say. With that said, from what you describe I would be taking my money and spending it elsewhere. Just my opinion.

Unfortunately many if not most people new to dog training have no idea what to look for in a trainer.

Thus the bad cycle continues.