Joel Smith wrote 03/13/2017 03:56 PM Range of drive in pups #403303 - 03/13/2017 03:56 PM
Joel Smith Webboard User Reg: 05-02-2016 Posts: 44 Loc: Denver, CO Offline	Hi everyone. In breeding (GSD's), will the pups' drives always be within the range of the parents, or can certain drives in certain pups exceed that of either parent (either higher or lower)? For example, if the sire is high prey drive and dam is medium prey drive, will all pups either be medium or high ball drive, or could some be low? Thanks in advance!
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Candi Campbell wrote 03/13/2017 05:11 PM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403306 - 03/13/2017 05:11 PM
Candi Campbell Webboard User Reg: 03-28-2013 Posts: 1571 Loc: Offline	Quote: Joel Smith Hi everyone. In breeding (GSD's), will the pups' drives always be within the range of the parents, or can certain drives in certain pups exceed that of either parent (either higher or lower)? For example, if the sire is high prey drive and dam is medium prey drive, will all pups either be medium or high ball drive, or could some be low? Thanks in advance! Well, I once had a pair of identical twin Whippets (born in the same sac as true identical twins, not just littermates) -- One of them had over-the-top Prey Drive for the lure, but my other one was never particularly interested in the chase ... IMHO, dogs are all Individuals with their own Personal characteristics, whatever the parents' traits
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Bob Scott wrote 03/13/2017 10:42 PM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403311 - 03/13/2017 10:42 PM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	If you know of a previous litter from two that you might be looking at it could be worth your wild to check them out if possible. To say want would be the results of a first time breeding would be anywhere from an estimated, hope for, guess to neither of the parents. The range could also be all over the place regardless of breeding. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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Joel Smith wrote 03/14/2017 09:23 AM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403319 - 03/14/2017 09:23 AM
Joel Smith Webboard User Reg: 05-02-2016 Posts: 44 Loc: Denver, CO Offline	Interesting; thanks for the responses. So (if I understand right) the pups' temperament is primarily genetic, but not necessarily limited by the parents' temperaments. I wonder how much of a role grandparents (or further back the pedigree) genes play in the pups?
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Kelly wrote 03/14/2017 10:34 AM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403320 - 03/14/2017 10:34 AM
Kelly Moderator Reg: 06-03-2005 Posts: 1495 Loc: Offline	Genetics don't really play a part in drive past the grandparents. When breeing dogs, you pick 2 that will compliment each other in the hopes that the pups will have all the good things of both parents. It does not always work that way. We've had excellent breedings on paper that ended up with moderately driven pups, and we've seen marginal breedings turn up amazing pups. We've also seen differences between 2 litters of pups from the same parents - one litter being phenomenal so they repeated the breeding. The 2nd litter did not have the high drive of the first, but had softer more tolerant temperaments. How the breeder raises the pups will also have an influence on drive - we always worked with the pups with tugs and rags, until they went to their new home. Not all breeders do that.
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Candi Campbell wrote 03/14/2017 10:42 AM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403321 - 03/14/2017 10:42 AM
Candi Campbell Webboard User Reg: 03-28-2013 Posts: 1571 Loc: Offline	Quote: Joel Smith Interesting; thanks for the responses. So (if I understand right) the pups' temperament is primarily genetic, but not necessarily limited by the parents' temperaments. I wonder how much of a role grandparents (or further back the pedigree) genes play in the pups? Joel, you need a general primer on Basic Genetics and from there you can advance to "Principles of Inheritance in the Line-Bred Canine" (Volumes 1-10) -- Back in 1975-76, I put together a paper on the morphology of coat color patterns in the Basenji, which took me nearly a YEAR to write, LOL ... And that's rather "simple stuff" compared with the complex variables of K9 drive & temperament. But suffice to say that common wisdom among stock breeders is typically, "yes of course", traits of the grandsire & granddam (or even further back) are often re-expressed in the future get of their own immediate offspring (even skipping a generation in some cases) especially if a certain pre-potent ancestor occurs multiple times on both sides of the pedigree
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Candi Campbell wrote 03/14/2017 10:54 AM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Kelly ] #403322 - 03/14/2017 10:54 AM
Candi Campbell Webboard User Reg: 03-28-2013 Posts: 1571 Loc: Offline	Quote: Kelly We've also seen differences between 2 litters of pups from the same parents - one litter being phenomenal so they repeated the breeding. The 2nd litter did not have the high drive of the first, but had softer more tolerant temperaments. Yep, this was definitely evident in my pair of identical twin Whippets -- One was "Type A" and won every lure event in which he ever ran, while the other had a much more "relaxed attitude" toward the chase ... And they were produced from the SAME egg cell & the SAME sperm cell, go figure
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Duane Hull wrote 03/14/2017 10:56 AM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Kelly ] #403323 - 03/14/2017 10:56 AM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	Quote: Kelly How the breeder raises the pups will also have an influence on drive - we always worked with the pups with tugs and rags, until they went to their new home. Not all breeders do that. I have seen this first-hand up close. IMO, the breeder plays a larger role in creating drive than the breeding does. I am very close to a working GSD breeder who imprints all of his puppies the way that Kelly described. It is not uncommon to see a whole litter of 4 week olds chasing the broom when he sweeps the kennels. He exercises them by walking around with a flirt pole with the little buggers clamoring over each other to catch the flirt. He is also watching to see if any aren't interested in it, but those are rare at his place. You may not recognize the dogs on his pedigrees, but all of his puppies leave his kennel with high drive. Good breeders also repeat successful pairings and don't repeat the uh-ohs. When looking for a pup with high drive, identify the breeders you trust, visit the kennels, and ask about the motives for pairing the dogs he does. Ask if he imprints drive, obedience, or any other behavior. Most will be glad to show off past litters and brag about upcoming breedings. Sadie
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Kelly wrote 03/14/2017 12:10 PM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Joel Smith ] #403325 - 03/14/2017 12:10 PM
Kelly Moderator Reg: 06-03-2005 Posts: 1495 Loc: Offline	Genetics give the dog the "potential" for certain work - it takes proper handling and training to bring the pup up to meet his potential. The new dog I just got (Fennec) had drive up the wazoo as a pup - when they litter tested at 7 weeks, she was really high on the drive end. But the person that bought her didn't understand how to handle her, and quashed that drive. I now have a 3 year old dog that I am retraining how to tug...
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Bob Scott wrote 03/14/2017 11:15 PM Re: Range of drive in pups [Re: Kelly ] #403331 - 03/14/2017 11:15 PM
Bob Scott Moderator Reg: 06-14-2002 Posts: 7417 Loc: St. Louis Mo Offline	"POTENTIAL" Well said Kelly! People ask me to look at a litter for or with them. I will tell them that what I see in a puppy's "potential" doesn't mean they will wind up with the future dog I see. How those people work with the pup is what they wind up with and even if I help and explain in detail what and how they should work with that pup doesn't mean it will turn out. Experience, leadership/management skills, a willing to learn and individual personalities will always vary from person to person and that is what helps develop whatever potential the puppy may have. old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks
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