When I use the tug she comes to me to play more tug when I switch to the chuck it she comes to me but doesn't release all the time. For example she comes back and she self rewards or waits till I grab her harness to release.

What are my options. I have been trying the release command and instantly mark YES and reward. So I reward the release. But this doesn't seem to be working. Now if I grab the ball or ball on string she easily lets go on command. I just can't quite get her to return to me and OUT when I say so I can chuck it some more.

Also occasionally she won't come all the way but just lay down with toy. This one I think just keep a long line on her and coax her back with the leash.

Any ideas to polish this up?

Your also going from a game of tug to a basic retrieve so I don't think the dog really understands the concept of "out" when it comes to the ball.

Same with the not returning all the way.

Once the dog gets the ball then you aren't as much a part of the equation any more because he now has what he wants, aka the ball.

The tug work is a game that increases you interaction with the dog.

Do you understand back chaining the retrieve?

You want to teach the hold and the out with the dog right in front of you with markers.

From that, don't toss the ball so far because the dog has gone beyond what I call your area of influence.

In other words the dog doesn't truly understand the retrieve with distance is a requirement and not just at his whim.

Keeping him close in the beginning will keep this from happening.

That could also be you requiring to many retrieves in one session and the dog is getting either tired or bored.

ALWAYS stop on a high note in training where the dog is still wanting.

Teaching ANY behaviors you want by break it down into as many small behaviors as possible thus the back chaining!

LB has an EXCELLENT retrieve training video but Michael Ellis "IF" you truly understand marker training.

To me the out is more of an impulse control exercise. With a retrieve when you want the dog to come back and "give" you the ball is totally different than the out in tug. Bob said that already. TRy a separate exercise, train the "hold" (hold something in their mouth) and then the "give".
With the laying down, I would try to anticipate when he is about to lay down and stop it by making some noise and running away from them. Most likely that will stop the down and more than likely speed up the dogs returning to you.

I want to make sure I understand you two.

First....I do understand back chaining and markers.
Second...Is there a difference from THE RETRIEVE like Ellis video and "casual" park chuck it sessions?

Lastly.....Are you saying the OUT from tug work (I use the power of training with tug) is different than a release of a ball? If so that is one area that I could change. I use OUT for drop the ball and out on the tug.

Also when you say outside my area of influence. If I say have a 50 ft light line on her harness as long as I have that line that is my influence? I can guide her back?

In summary start with hold and drop it.
Then do smaller chuck it sessions or stay with my influence and
then just repetition.

Thanks

Does she return the ball to hand when you toss it in the chuck?

That's different then a return and drop.

50 is to far even if she is on a line.

I want the dog so close that there is no desire to leave because she is so close.

Back chaining with the hold and out is great but the distance should be added slowly and the number of times you ask for the retrieve should not reach a point of boredom.

A dog with a natural retrieve will bust it's but to get the ball back to you in order to keep the game going.

Without a natural retrieve the dog has to learn that bringing it back will continue the game.

My first GSD had a crazy natural retrieve when I tested his litter the first time at 4 wks old so with him it was nothing more then refining the finish for competitions.

My GSD now didn't have that natural retrieve so I taught his with back chaining.

He's crazy about it now.

I don't compete now so his sit front with the retrieve isn't very pretty but we have fun.

For yrs I taught numerous dogs of mine to retrieve with the ear pinch.

It worked well but none of those retrieves had the just plain joy in retrieving that marker training brings.

Keep her happy!

For more context now that I know there is a difference what I am not really interested in is formal retrieve and hold and release. This is strictly for pleasure at the park. The family doesn't like digging in her mout and getting slimy, though I don't care. So what I am after is coming back to within like 3 ft and dropping ball on ground and picking it up with the chuck device. Tug she is fine she brings the tug back I am just trying to refine the chuck it experience. Does that add some final clarity.

Sounds like I need to teach a separate command from OUT like DROP IT and then back chain slowly till she comes to me consistently.

"Sounds like I need to teach a separate command from OUT like DROP IT and then back chain slowly till she comes to me consistently."

That makes sense.

When you use the chuck it I would suggest you have two of the balls used with them.


That would be more incentive for the dog to drop the ball when it returns.

That would help introduce the different command also.

1) Two of mine retrieve the toy , return immediately und hand it over. But it can happen that they drop it mistakenly. Then I say "Give it!" (Too lazy to pick it up myself) They pick it up and hand it over. Now I'm unsure whether I should use the "Give it!" at all and whether I should then reward with a treat???

Somehow I think it's wrong, because when practicing the retrieve they are in play mode. Rewarding with food seems to me in between contradictory. But now they are used to it and anticipate a food reward. Can I fade it without them loosing motivation?

2) I have begun to play Fetch. For the time being only from very near. I myself have to learn to toss the frisbee so that they have a chance to fetch it out of the air. When I play fetch I do it like you Bob, but not with balls. After they have fetched the frisbee and brought it back, I toss immediately a second one. In order to catch it they need to drop the first one. So a "Drop it" is unnecessary.

Here I also made the mistake to reward with food in the beginning. Now I don't any more, because I think continuing with the game is the reward.
But what if they drop the frisbee mistakenly before I have tossed the next one? I should not reward for having dropped it. But I should reward for having picked it up and brought it to me. No reward seems to me like a punishment. Or should I simply go on with the game? But then this would be a reward, which they have not really earned. This confuses me.

3) Or should I leave those principles of marker training (mark, reward, non-reward) while playing. (Except of course the necessary rules of the game) ? Just fun, fun, fun.

4) OUT and DROP IT: I also think those two commands should be used for two different behaviors. Dropping IMO has nothing to do with outing. OUT is something like LET GO.- DROP IT is really "LET IT FALL DOWN" I've always used it for situations like when they picked up something they shouldn't.

The "Out" I use only for tugging. I never play tug with a ball. Should I? With a tug or a similar toy I feel much safer to handle it correctly, so the dog will not mistakenly bite me.

The two ball or two frizby method does work but my issue with it is wanting the dog to bring it to my hand.

That just adds another step in training the retrieve when the dog learns all it has to do is drop it on the ground in order to get another toss.

Not an issue at all if that's what you want from the dog.

With competition the dog is required to bring the object to you and hold it till you give the out command.

With Thunder he learned the difference, If we were just playing fetch I never stood formal with my arms at my side so he knew all he had to do was bring it to me with no holding till I gave the out command.

Trooper had never learned the "formal" fetch so all we do is toss and bring. No sit or formality needed.

He may very well run around me a couple of times but he WILL bring it to me.

It's nothing more then a fun game with him.

Oh, thanks, now I understand the difference. As I will not go into competition with my dogs RETRIEVE and FETCH is just a fun game. When playing RETRIEVE they have to search a toy and hand it over to me. If once they drop it I say "give it". This they understand well. When playing FETCH I think I'm doing it like you with the two balls. They have to bring the frisbee to me and drop it when I toss the second one.

But what should I do, if he drops it before I tossed the next one? Just let it happen like this and go on playing without inserting an other command? This would be unprecise but on the other hand more practical for the fluency of the game.

With more practice I'd like to toss 4 or 5 frisbees successively and rapidly. Do you think this is unrealistic? I've never seen it, but I thought it might be fun and would also train the reactions of the dogs.